Topic Am I a bad tank?
Edited by Hakuren on 4/20/13 1:28 AM (PDT)
This applies to LFR.
Today, I did Lei Shen for the 2nd time (first on my mage).
My mage's experience was something like: we wiped 6~7 times before finally being able to accomplish the task of defeating him. Their tanks were a little better geared than mine is.
I come in today on my DK tank knowing what to expect. I've read what to do for the tanking part and watched several videos. Of course, I had to adjust a little. Many people in the raid had never done the fight before (first time through) so I kind of wound up being the designated leader.
The first two fights went fine (Qon and Consorts I believe). After consorts, a lot of people left and we eventually got a new group of people. During this transition, one of the warriors offered to use his LFR macro to explain some of the mechanics of Lei Shen's fight. I asked him if I could borrow his notes to put them in a macro and he said yes.
Before we went to do the fight, I pasted the 4 or 5 macros worth of text and then assigned specific groups to the N/S/E/W areas for the intermission part.
We go to do the first attempt at Lei Shen and end up dying due to too many adds from intermission (predictable first attempt for LFR). The next two times we end up wiping due to groups designated to a specific quadrant dying. I ask the raid what we can do to change some things. Some people offered advice..but one particular hunter offered the following when I told him it took my group around 6 tries to get it the first time through on mage:
"Considering the fact that you are the common denominator in both runs, maybe the problem is you?"
Your average cocky LFR player of course. This guy is from my server, though. Many people tell him to just cram it and, quite honestly, I don't think either of my characters were a cause for wiping that many times. Just a crass insult is all he was going for.
One more attempt (this time, we get to phase 3 but our healers end up dead) and he starts to get rowdy. He then starts to spam votekick on me. Many people say no they want me to stay because I'm the only one offering suggestions or advice/information in chat. It gets to the point where he has attempted to votekick me 13 or so times now and people are getting annoyed. They ask, "Who is doing all the kicking?" and they say, "You know...after 12~13 attempts, the tank isn't going anywhere. Take a hint." I tell them the likely culprit to which he is booted almost instantly after I mention his name. He proceeds to get on his alt and harass me because he's mad he was booted out of a LFR group.
Fine. I can handle one rude player. But then another group, again from my server, starts to pipe up. They say things like "the tank doesn't know the fight mechanics" or "the other tank (not me) is too squishy" and some other things. One player says, "Look at Niflhel's progress: not one normal mode attempt and he's trying to lead a LFR."
I wasn't really trying to lead. Just giving information to people so that we can be better prepared. Not to mention their own progress wasn't too outstanding itself. You can find them pretty easily...just search "Jeubus" while in the Hyjal forums.
Eventually they start mouthing off and when the next pull commences, the disc priest from their guild life grips me to the side of the platform in an attempt to kill me. It doesn't work. I tell her, "Nice try." and put her on ignore.
Again, people at this point are still saying I'm doing a good job, staying positive, and sticking to it.
But I'm not convinced. I tell them, "I will gladly step down for another tank to join if that is what you want. Can you please tell me what I did wrong, though, so that I may improve in the future?" This was more to prove a point than to get feedback because, of course, they didn't give any constructive feedback confirming their backseat driving position.
So while we are having this chat, the other tank pulls (because he appears to just want to finish and also not get me kicked). We eventually get him down at 6 stacks of determination. As far as I know, I don't think I did anything wrong in the raid. My ilevel is a little under for that raid but I've seen people in lower gear tank Lei Shen just fine.
Anyways, I just needed to rant. I don't know how you guys do it...putting up with the tremendous amount of bull!@#$ that you do in LFR. Seems the clutch response is to automatically blame the tank.
I end up telling their mage that he is 4 ilevels ahead of me but does crap for DPS in comparison, I tell the priest that a problem arises when you try to kill you tank purposefully, and I tell their mouthy druid to go complete LFR Consorts/Qon. Their progress seems to be 6/12 for normal MSV and 2/whatever for ToT. Doesn't seem like much to brag about...they might have even PUGed MSV.
How many times do you all run into this type of situation?
Here's the tank, by the way. I've read IcyVeins, the DK forums, used simulations, used AMR, and such to get the best possible performance out of my current gear. It has worked something well so far but I do tend to be a little squishy. Not sure if that's normal for DKs.
Edited by Sedori on 4/19/13 3:34 AM (PDT)
From what I can see those people are just plain rude dudes.
Your gear looks fine.
DKs aren't really forced to do 7.5%hit/15% expertise.
Also this is the first week of Lei Shen in LFR. Give or take a week or so more and people will be one shotting that wing.
(By the way, first time I did that boss too we had 7 stacks of Determination)
Edited by Shamrunt on 4/19/13 6:27 AM (PDT)
I think it would be hard to wipe too much soley due to tanks not tanking properly.
I mean it's a pretty simple fight.
Here's the LFR guide in a nutshell from joystiq's site.
Tank Lei Shen close to a conduit (starting with the West is nice). Watch the conduit and move onto the next once it has leveled three times. Taunt when the tank is affected by Decapitate. The affected tank needs to run away from the boss immediately. Each conduit has an ability the raid needs to deal with. North: Stack for Static Shock (blue arrow); East: Spread for Diffusion Chain; South: Stack on the giant player to avoid the Overcharged stun; West: Stand in the swirl to avoid spawning adds with Bouncing Bolt. Run away from Thunderstruck, the large lightning circle on the ground, anytime it's cast. Tank and kill any adds that are spawned during the encounter.
During intermission, spread out between the sections and deal with the above abilities, being sure to absorb Bouncing Bolts. Avoid the electrified section of the platform after. During phase two, tank swap for Fusion Slash (face your back away from the edge), stack for Summon Ball Lightning, and move out of the Lightning Whip. During phase three, stack for the balls, move out of the whip, don't get pushed off of the platform by winds, and tank swap for Overwhelming Power stacks if needed
So there's really not a great deal for Tanks to screw up on. Just know your taunt swaps and keep him next to the conduits. The rest of the raid needs to know when to spread and when to stack. Of the few attempts I've had on him with both my toons it was the raid wiping more than the tanks screwing up.
I think it would be hard to wipe too much soley due to tanks not tanking properly.
These are the EXACT same lines of text I put in my macro that the other warrior had recommended. I posted these exactly right before the raid commenced for the first time.
Thanks for reading my rant, though. It just left a bad taste in my mouth that makes me want to stay away from LFR (tank-wise) for a while. I got some nice pants off of Lei Shen by chance but it didn't really feel that rewarding after dealing with all the insults flung my way. :\
Edited by Plethora on 4/19/13 1:08 PM (PDT)
LFR needs someone to blame. And there's 2 ways to wipe on Lei Shen: tanks not knowing what to do (taunting, moving) and people being herp-derps (phase changes, standing in the wrong spot, not standing on other people).
I've lead 3 successful (4 if you count my DK but I was pretty tired + medicated so I don't QUITE remember it) LFRs. And only my main has actually completed it.
Those people were just being the 'common' LFRers. Herp-derps who think they're the new hotness.
It takes at least 1 wipe (usually 2) before people start listening to 'advice' or 'directions' in LFR. I did find I had to just solo tank it on Pleth during phase 1 because the other tank had NO IDEA what I meant by 'move it to the other section' when I explained it to him. Eventually I just marked the sections and told each group to move there- and had 1 group float to cover whatever section was herp-derping the most.
Edit: What I'm trying to say is, ignore 99% of what you hear in LFR, and take the 1% that isn't pure stupid and learn from it.
Quite separate from Lei Shen in particular is the idea that tanking requires a specific mentality.
When you tank, you draw more attention than anybody else in the raid. Especially when you raid with people you don't know (such as in LFR!), and you have any vulnerabilities at all (such as weak progression), someone will inevitably try to exploit anything they can. You will be harrassed, put down, ridiculed and dismissed as a noob.
You should feel good about the fact that you had so many people in the raid behind you, and you should feel great about the fact that you did more preparation and research on one encounter than many entire LFR raids do on all twelve.
The trick is keeping that feeling of confidence even during the times when you ARE the one making the mistakes and you ARE wiping the raid a couple times in a row. ;) Our Normal Lei Shen progression a while back was a time I don't remember fondly, being knocked off the platform by Fusion Slash on a key attempt after a couple hours of the raid handling the transition phases badly, and it wasn't a great night for me overall either.
The question here isn't whether you're a bad tank gameplay-wise, it's whether you're a bad tank mentality-wise! And that's not a slight; tanking just isn't for everybody. Instead of trying to avoid this kind of situation in the future, think more along the lines of how you're going to react to it the next time it happens. It's an inextricable part of a tank's life, and if you really do enjoy tanking, don't let it put you off.
Feel free to ridicule me for being so cheesy. I got kind of carried away!
I love tanking. :>
Edited by Leeflow on 4/19/13 11:18 PM (PDT)
well ... a friend of mine with 7/13h was doing lfr yesterday and got kicked because he was stacking with people when he got the "aoe split dmg" debuff.
they started to yell that he was trying to wipe the group on purpose .. and vote kicked him.
Even I got kicked in lfr because the other tank on magaera didn't face his head away from the group, and after a couple of breaths, people died. I got kicked as well because it was "the tank's fault" (as if we were a single entity, controlling two characters .. so obviously, both are wrong).
LFD players are polite gentlemans compared to lfr.
Seriously, LFR crow in it's vast majority is the scrap of the scrap of the bottom of the pit.
It's as if the taint and maladies that plague the world, materialize into individuals, they would be doing LFR.
so yeh, just ignore it.
Random note: You could get forum banned for naming the guild here. Just a heads up.
Also, I still remember my mage getting some guy moaning at me because I was fire spec, not frost, because frost was higher dps and blah blah blah and I was like "I don't really care, I play fire because I think fireballs are more badass than wussy frost bolts or arcane bolts" and other people started piping up like "Yeah, how dare someone have fun playing this game" and stuff. I :D'ed.
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
Random note: You could get forum banned for naming the guild here. Just a heads up.
TY! I removed their name and added a way to find them indirectly.
I went through this as well friend......I have reviewed your stats and equip....you are fine.
In my case I was a stat and armor mess.....so the group was right to kick me, but the way the kicked me, the insults, the lack of helpful information, and the psychological blow kept me out of LFR for weeks.
I have been kicked one other time since in these last many months, but that was due to a bad ISP connection and I was getting hung many times during the run.....stuff outside of any one's control.
As was mentioned.......don't get down....there is tons of insults and finger pointing to go around in LFR and most of which is pointless and people venting. The kick option is way over abused in LFR.
LFR is supposed to be a place to learn, get a small taste for the Normal and Heroic levels, but there are far too many folks that take the LFR as tome.....because they will never get any higher than LFR, LFR equipment, and LFR Play.....so this is where they try to "make their Bones". So anyone that does not carry them must be a Derp.
Shoot; If you look there are already folks that are dieing 30+ times in the first three portions of the raid and that go AFK immediately.
I have found that trying to diffuse frayed nerves may, and I stress MAY, help from time to time....tell folks to breath.....check their CD's, and "knock of the BS and stay Frosty"
I have noticed that the longer the down rhetoric continues the more the performance from all players goes down......
Just remember that you are fine and apparently doing what you are supposed to do....remember all those that did not want you kicked.....that speaks volumes over the ONE that did.
There are times I wish that there was better anything from LFR's, as we LFR runners have to survive the worst, and toughest, bosses of all........The other Players
Take from a former screw up......you are fine....
NOT GET BACK IN THERE AND TANK ;)
LFR Lei Shen is hard as people learn the fight. I find having a thick skin is probably the most important part of being a tank.
I'm a pretty decent tank with solid gear having killed most heroic content while it is relevant and I still find I get grief in LFR.
I've had people complain about me pulling too fast, pulling too slow, doing it wrong and everything in between. Just do your best to have fun and ignore the noise as that is all that it is.
Your setup is solid, keep at it, it gets to be more fun.
Honestly OP? What you described is exactly why I will not run LFR anymore on this guy...period.
My similar situation happened on Li Shi in Terrace. The OT was moving her all over creation and I was doing my best to get in position to taunt and not cause undue injury to the raid.
Needless to say, I get bombed from a shaman who states I was killing the raid and needed to l2 position.
I let it go, but vowed that that was the last straw for me. So I now concentrate on my hpally and will just retire this guy or just run lowbie guildies through some stuff for laughs.
My advice to you is to either run with a guild, or develop skin as think as Deathwing's armor -- you'll need it.
Edited by Zoevil on 4/26/13 10:59 AM (PDT)
Meh... people are stupid and the tanks are easier to blame... there are only 2 of them to pick on and the raid frames even sort them out of the group for small minded idiots to vent their spleen on. I had one last night that was somehow the tank's fault when a mage facepulled 3 healers short.... Never did sort out the logic there.
Please don't stop tanking LFR just because of those types... Even my healer queue is getting long ;D
90 Human Monk
How can some people live with themselves with the way they behave? Spam vote kick you dozen times? The more ways Blizzard makes us group with people we'll never see again, the more crazy they get.
I've heard the horror stories and after getting this account to having it's first 90 I'll never tank LFRs at all. Don't think I even want to run em period. It seems it's filled with immature kids who are anti-teamwork.
people in LFR's are stupid. I went in tonight and while we were finishing up the last bat adds before tortos, someone face pulled. holy priest blames me for it, until a monk piped up and apologized for doing it, at which point I asked if I deserved an apology.
What I got was the same priest complaining because I wasn't using pummel on the trash.
Or the pally dps who started taunting Jinrok "because I wasn't taunting". I wasn't taunting because I was waiting for the stun that comes after you're thrown.
There's just a whole lot of stupid in LFR's, but one piece of advice I will give you is this:
Try to head it off when someone starts complaining. It doesn't matter if they're !@#$%ing at you or someone else in general. Head it off and make it explicit. "please stop, all it takes is 1 person and then LFR devolves into a cluster". You'd be surprised how often it works, and generally speaking, if the person continues, you can get them booted fairly easily.
I've just been taking this tank alt in to LFR recently and I've actually found the only way to do it is to whisper with the other tank, push instructions to the raid channel and not read anything else sent to you. You might miss something useful from a healer or such, but that's a small price to pay for missing all the useless / incorrect messages.