Lets talk Trolls

91 Night Elf Druid
9065
So, lets figure this out.

I'm sure many of you guys have dogs. Take a look at your dog, I'm sure he's totally a best friend to you.

Understand then, that said dog is NOT it's own species. A little toy poodle is not a different species than a Great Dane either..

All dogs are subspecies of Gray Wolves. Yes, I'm sure many of you would point out that there is (or was) a dividing opinion on that in the scientific community, but with the advent of DNA testing, we can reliably exclude any other canine species except the gray wolf.

But there's the thing. A Toy Poodle and a Great Dane ARE still a subspecies of wolf. They are still the same species..

But what about Trolls?

We know all trolls are subspecies of Zandalari, but are all subspecies of trolls the same subspecies, or does Zandalari branch out into multiple different types?

Before we go further, I'm going to start this by saying that the prevalent fact of separate species being unable to produce viable offspring is not accurate. Many can, many can't/

For instance, Ligers, probably the most famous of hybrid animals, are fertile, as the cub born in 1953 proved. Even grew into adult hood, though it had health issues.

But can TROLL subspecies reproduce?

Is, say, a Frost Troll and a Jungle Troll one species, just different ethnicity? Could they provide fertile offspring if they WERE different subspecies?

Or are Jungle and Frost trolls infact different species of Troll. And where does this line end?

Sand Trolls, for instance, were Jungle Trolls that got stuck in the desert. Are they an ethnicity now? Or a species.
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90 Draenei Monk
17205
I don't think genetics are a big concern for Blizzard. Obvious example is Med'an, not remotely possible scientifically but it happened, somehow.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
But there isn't anything inherently wrong with Medan.

Again, Lion's and Tigers produce fertile offspring, and they are different species.

And Cougars have been known to be introduced to lands with panther species declining to help boost populations.
Edited by Ferlion on 4/14/2013 2:55 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Monk
17205
But there isn't anything inherently wrong with Medan.

Again, Lion's and Tigers produce fertile offspring, and they are different species.

And Cougars have been known to be introduced to lands with panther species declining to help boost populations.


Well, draenei, humans, and orcs are so different genetically they don't even have the same kind of blood. I'm sure trolls are more than capable of making babies with each other despite subspecies.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
Well, draenei, humans, and orcs are so different genetically


Medan would still be possible though. Don't get me wrong, fertility should be RARE in cases of Orc/Space Goat cross breeding. After all, the Liger I mentioned earlier was the only one to ever give birth that we know of, and it was 60 years ago.

Me'dan is a freak of nature, but not an impossible one if we assume reproductive organs are compatible, which they most obviously are. The only other major hang up should be chromosome count, and Orcs, Humans, and Draenei must have a fairly close, if not exact, count in order to facilitate reproduction.
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90 Draenei Monk
17205

Medan would still be possible though. Don't get me wrong, fertility should be RARE in cases of Orc/Space Goat cross breeding. After all, the Liger I mentioned earlier was the only one to ever give birth that we know of, and it was 60 years ago.

Me'dan is a freak of nature, but not an impossible one if we assume reproductive organs are compatible, which they most obviously are. The only other major hang up should be chromosome count, and Orcs, Humans, and Draenei must have a fairly close, if not exact, count in order to facilitate reproduction.


Wouldn't the blood be a deal breaker though? Human blood is red because of the iron in it. Draenei blood is blue so it probably doesn't have iron. Orc blood is dark red so it probably has a lot more iron than human blood. Mix those all up would make 1 messed up baby. I doubt a draenei mother would supply iron to the child while it's in the womb so even if it was conceived it probably would die in the womb.

I don't think genetics mean a whole lot in WoW.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9065
I don't think genetics mean a whole lot in WoW.


Either do casualties since Blizzard pulls troops out of their behind when needed. It still gets talked about <.<

Come on now Lena, it's a fun conversation!

As for the Iron point, that assumes that's WHY the Orc and Spacegoat blood are different colors.

Night Elves have purple blood and Blood Elves have red blood (as far as I know), and they are directly related. Both can also presumably mate with humans, since Blood Elves can give viable half breed offspring.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14190
This discussion makes me wonder how a troll/elf hybrid would turn out. After all elves seem to most likely be another branch of the troll genetic line.

This also makes me wonder about elves and troll regeneration. We know elves dont have the same level of regeneration. Infact theres alot to suggest that troll regeneration is tied to their connection with the Loa. However perhaps that regeneration explains the longevity that elven races enjoy.

Man, theres some facinating possiblities there. I know alot of NE fans arent exactly thrilled with the Troll connection but Ive been finding myself more and more interested in the story of how the tribe that became the NEs went from Zandalari to NE. Wouldnt it be kind of wild to have the NEs discover an anceint troll temple to Elune or maybe one of the Ancients?

I dont know. The thing I like about these possibilities it connects the NEs and by extension the HE/BEs to the heritage of Azeroth. Id love to know the ancient history of the Tauren and their origins.
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90 Draenei Monk
17205
As for the Iron point, that assumes that's WHY the Orc and Spacegoat blood are different colors.


I don't know what else would change the color. Human blood is red because of iron. I don't think Blizzard ever explained why so best guess is draenei blood has a different metal in it(cobalt? lead?) that makes it blue.

Not sure on orcs. I don't know if more iron would make it darker red. I know oxygen deficiency will make it darker, maybe orcs breathe in less oxygen?

Night Elves have purple blood and Blood Elves have red blood (as far as I know), and they are directly related. Both can also presumably mate with humans, since Blood Elves can give viable half breed offspring.


Is it possible that the curse of flesh was based on the species already on Azeroth(trolls and by extention elves) and thus the cursed titan species are very close to the native species?
Edited by Lena on 4/14/2013 3:25 AM PDT
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They are all just ethnicities. They use the same character models, and their differences are cosmetic only. Environmental adaptations not dissimilar to those found among humans of various flavors.

Even the Zandalari are only marginally different than their offshoots and I bet still fertile with them.

Also, Trook, one of the things I'm looking forward to in the upcoming Vol'jin book is a vision of how the dark trolls became NE. He is supposed to be experiencing flashbacks of all troll history.
Edited by Sybhyl on 4/14/2013 4:20 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
14190
Is it possible that the curse of flesh was based on the species already on Azeroth(trolls and by extention elves) and thus the cursed titan species are very close to the native species?


Either than or the curse of flesh breaks down genetic limitations for cross breeding. Then again, that doesnt explain Dreanei/Orc hybrids. That potentially could be explained though as the result of magical influence and experimentation. After all Garona was the result of an experimental breeding program, probably related to the Dreanei's link to the Eradar and Gul'dan's hunger for the BL's power.

This would also suggest that trolls and humans can breed as well. We have never heard of any half troll half orcs so maybe they cant crossbreed.

Interesting possibilities.

This subject has actually got me thinking about Loa. We know that Loa are native to Azeroth and predate the titans. It seems extremely likely that in ordering the world the titans took their presence into consideration. Perhaps Elune was one of the more powerful Loa when the titans came and she allied with the Titans in their war. Would explain alot including Elune's link to the Well of Eternity.

If we really wanted to stretch it we could consider that the more 'human' shape the elves developed (hands, feet and no tusks) could related to Elunes relation to the titans in how they developed from trolls.
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I'm gathering that mating with a troll would probably be fatal for a human. Those troll ladies are...highly energetic. Probably also the males. Most unlikely that any pairing could ever come to term, even assuming it was possible.

I am staying the hell away from Elune. That is the third rail of WoW theology.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
18880
Why are people trying to scientifically rationalize Me'dan? A Wizard did it. Literally.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
I'm not sure what you're trying to ask dude. Can trolls cross breed with subspecies or with other species?
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
9755
I always assumed that Trolls had something of a unique physiology given their extreme regeneration capacities, and that it would preclude them from crossbreeding with other species.

Since that's been magiced away as a blessing of the Loa rather than a default aspect of Trollishness, however, I don't know anymore. That Trolls are furthermore the precursors of the Elves, one might assume that perhaps it's possible, and the only thing keeping it from happening before is the rampant xenophobia prevalent across all Troll cultures.

That said, however, there is still the issue that absolutely NO Troll Hybrids of any sort have ever been found. Now, while I've little doubt that all Trolls can interbreed with one another regardless of their "subspecies", there just isn't any proof that they can go beyond that. In a universe with Orcish-Draenei hybrids, that's saying something.

Draenei, even if they are carbon based, have blue blood. That potentially makes their blood chemistry closer to that of a horseshoe crab than anything resembling an orc. All I can assume is that the laws governing fertility in the WoWniverse have more of a metaphysical component to them that biochemistry takes a backseat to. What this means for the Trolls and cross-species breeding, well.. Who knows? Maybe we're back to the Regeneration issue, insofar that the trade-off is some sort of racial-purity clause that bars Trolls from breeding with other creatures.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9845
04/14/2013 02:41 AMPosted by Ferlion
We know all trolls are subspecies of Zandalari, but are all subspecies of trolls the same subspecies, or does Zandalari branch out into multiple different types?


They branch out. For example -

Sand Trolls, for instance, were Jungle Trolls that got stuck in the desert. Are they an ethnicity now? Or a species.


The Farraki. Technically, they would be both. They have a unique culture seperate to that of other Troll Tribes, (their own Loa) and they also have unique genetic adaptations that allow them to survive in the desert.
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96 Troll Shaman
5540
That Trolls are furthermore the precursors of the Elves, one might assume that perhaps it's possible, and the only thing keeping it from happening before is the rampant xenophobia prevalent across all Troll cultures.

That's not really any evidence of xenophobia seeing as we also don't know of any half-dwarves, half-Gnomes, half-Tauren, or half-just about anything except for the couple of half-human-elves and Garona.

For what it's worth, in one wow-comic, one character was said to be a half Troll, half Night Elf.

That could, however, just be a "yo momma" joke.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
I'm surprised there aren't more troll-elf hybrids, honestly.

I would've thought that the conflicts in Quel'Thalas would've created some.
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100 Human Rogue
9435
I don't think you can take Fantasy races of varying types and compare that with species of varying types in the real world. Fantasy always has the out, "A Wizard did it." or Magic happened.

Using the analogy of various breeds of dogs and applying it to Trolls, I think it would be easy to state that there are various breeds of Trolls, all the same species, all viable.

Night Elves on the other hand, are decedents of Trolls and have formed their own separate Genus and species. Since we're speaking of the magical kingdom of Warcraft, they would probably still be viable with Trolls. Culturally, I doubt that the mating of a Night Elf and Troll is ever likely to happen unless it was an involuntary union of one or both parents.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
9755
That's not really any evidence of xenophobia seeing as we also don't know of any half-dwarves, half-Gnomes, half-Tauren, or half-just about anything except for the couple of half-human-elves and Garona.


It's not evidence OF xenophobia as that's already an established longstanding trait among trolls. The absence of any hybrids, however, is a result OF said xenophobia.

The races you mention, however, also are not actively -hostile- towards other races, meaning no forced combinations either, like half-ogres and half-Draenei. There the lack of hybrids is a question of isolation, not explicit aversion in spite of it.

Trolls will seek to conquer, to invade, and to pillage and enslave. But, apparently, NOT r*ape. If they have, either no results have survived to become known, or there never were any results, meaning Trolls are a biologically isolated race restricted to breeding within its own ranks.
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