Sandstorm seriously bugged - FYI

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90 Worgen Warlock
10465
The aquatic one still isn't very good unless you broaden the category of what DoTs are. Cleansing rain already reduces the duration length of DoTs, and a lot of aquatics use that in their rotation. That and shell shield usually mean DoTs aren't an issue anyway for aquatics specifically.

If you want to broaden the category of DoTs from just poison/damage over time effects to all multi-turn abilities, then we'd be getting somewhere. So for example keep it at 25% and then moves like stampede, devour, etc. do less damage as well. You could also factor in spells like curse of doom if you wanted to.

The magic racial is fine, IMO, as it is. If you drop it even lower it's going to completely negate burst comps against magic comps even more. The racial itself doesn't need help but rather magic pets as a whole could use more variety in movesets and stats.

The dragonkin racial could use some tweaking as could the beast one, but I already kind of touched on that.
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90 Tauren Hunter
9365
This... would be too much. It would just turn into a game of prediction. Big hit move coming? Swap an elemental in to take it. CC move coming? Swap to critter.


Yeah, but swapping pets is expensive. Giving up a whole turn to avoid an attack that you think MIGHT be coming? risky. I like these ideas because they are all strong defensive abilities. If you use them strategically they may add up to a win, but they are unlikely to be OP. I love abilities that favor the skill of the player.
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90 Worgen Warlock
10465
04/23/2013 10:29 AMPosted by Stygimoloch
This... would be too much. It would just turn into a game of prediction. Big hit move coming? Swap an elemental in to take it. CC move coming? Swap to critter.


Yeah, but swapping pets is expensive. Giving up a whole turn to avoid an attack that you think MIGHT be coming? risky. I like these ideas because they are all strong defensive abilities. If you use them strategically they may add up to a win, but they are unlikely to be OP. I love abilities that favor the skill of the player.


I'm inclined to agree. I'm not sure how I feel about changing the critter bonus but swapping pets should be less a punishment for trying to avoid something like the KLR's combo and rather become a strategy in itself.

There are two options for pet battles - integrate all the mechanics as a portion of strategy or just whittle them down to "whoever attacks first and does the most damage wins."

The second option is easier and probably easier to balance but is it the more fun choice? Probably not, for most people.
Edited by Alona on 4/23/2013 10:37 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
9105
04/23/2013 03:52 AMPosted by Stygimoloch
There have been countless threads by people who think they are reporting bugs, but just don't understand weather and the way it works with the elemental racial.


True. But the racial could be improved rather than completely changed. I don't think confusion is a good enough reason to scrap something.

There is nothing about swapping that says "elemental" to me. Would it really be difficult to make elementals ignore negative weather effects only?

I also disagree with the common line of thinking that elementals should ignore bonus damage from things like nocturnal strike. That is splitting hairs to me, like trying to argue that aquatics should get a benefit against lightning. There is a point where it is affecting the elemental, and a point where it is affecting the other pet. So if this is the source of the confusion, I am against it entirely.

04/23/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Crithto
Aquatic: Harmful DoTs reduced by 50% (up from 25%)


It would definitely help, but I think if it still makes sense to use any dot against any aquatic, it's not enough. Since the line of thinking toward this type of racial seems to be immunity (which I agree with completely), it seems aquatics could be given straight up immunity to all pet specific dot damage. (Barring things like turrets and lightning which are not pet specific.)

It should be a mistake to use dots against an aquatic.

04/23/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Crithto
Critters: Immune to CC completely


I like it. Even with a fast critter, CC currently interrupts your turn. This is a good change and makes critters feel more powerful and stronger in their niche.

This specifically seems a tad overpowered since many abilities play off of some of those CC effects. Off the top of my head all spiders that use 'webbed' modifiers, the kun-lai runt which uses a stun modifier, and I'm sure there are others I'm just not thinking of currently.


It should be a mistake to use CC against a critter.

04/23/2013 09:01 AMPosted by Crithto
Magic: Cannot be dealt more than 35% of total health in one move (down from 40%)


This looks like a tuning thing so I have no problem with it.

Maybe it should trigger on a kill?


After some thought, I take back this suggestion. For PvE it would be a great improvement, but in PvP where people tend to swap out pets that are about to die, it would be even more difficult than currently to trigger the dragonkin racial.

Maybe increase the trigger range?

04/23/2013 10:22 AMPosted by Alona
Cleansing rain already reduces the duration length of DoTs, and a lot of aquatics use that in their rotation.


Aquatics shouldn't have to rely on this to get the full benefit from their racial. The benefit from cleansing rain should be for the other pets on the team.
Edited by Hudax on 4/23/2013 11:02 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17580
Critters: Immune to CC completely
Critters currently reduce the duration of crowd control effects by one round, which makes fast critters significantly more powerful. We'd like critters of all speeds to benefit equally from their passive, so we're considering making them immune to crowd control effects completely. This would include stuns, roots, and other incapacitating effects.


I might actually use a critter since right now they're practically one of the most useless families. The only useful critter is a Rabbit and that's a fast pet so yes this change is great.
Edited by Nightsbane on 4/23/2013 11:12 AM PDT
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MVP
90 Worgen Warlock
10465

Cleansing rain already reduces the duration length of DoTs, and a lot of aquatics use that in their rotation.


Aquatics shouldn't have to rely on this to get the full benefit from their racial. The benefit from cleansing rain should be for the other pets on the team.


They don't rely on it for their racial. (Though they do rely on it for the added damage to aquatic moves.) It's just another overlap, much like shell shield on crabs, that makes their racial more useless atm.
Edited by Alona on 4/23/2013 11:17 AM PDT
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Critters having complete immunity to CC suddenly makes spiders feel less loved.
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90 Tauren Hunter
9365
It would definitely help, but I think if it still makes sense to use any dot against any aquatic, it's not enough. Since the line of thinking toward this type of racial seems to be immunity (which I agree with completely), it seems aquatics could be given straight up immunity to all pet specific dot damage. (Barring things like turrets and lightning which are not pet specific.)

It should be a mistake to use dots against an aquatic.


Now THIS would be interesting. Maybe instead of 50% or complete immunity, it could be a flat damage reduction per tick, like an automatic shell. Or maybe the Dot attack could only do damage on the first application and then it would "wash away". There is a sweet spot somewhere in these "dot reduction" ideas that would make for some really interesting gameplay.
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23 Human Warrior
8440
Critters having complete immunity to CC suddenly makes spiders feel less loved.


Indeed, considering my little spider would have a move that's supposed to be super-effective against critters...
... yet they would be immune to it. What?
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90 Night Elf Druid
5475
04/23/2013 10:29 AMPosted by Stygimoloch
Giving up a whole turn to avoid an attack that you think MIGHT be coming? risky.


Especially if it's an attack with a CC proc, because then you still take the damage.

If you're negating a pure CC move, then you give up a turn to make the enemy's turn ineffective and put him on CD, but if you give up a turn to counter something like Rupture and take the damage anyway, then you're actually coming out behind even if your counter ability works.

But if complete CC immunity turns out to be too powerful, other options might include immunity to loss-of-control CC only (but can still be rooted), or maybe getting some kind of benefit while CC'd -- a heal like Second Wind, or a defensive proc like Dematerialize, maybe?

It's also nice to see some moves in the direction of reducing speed dependence, even if it is just for one family. The fact that so many defensive moves depend on speed to be fully effective is a big deal, IMO.

Actually, that gives me a new idea for elemental: +X% speed in any weather. Is 50% too much? (How would the uptime compare to Flying or Beast, in practice? Depends on whether the elemental itself has a weather ability or has to rely on a teammate?) Maybe 35%? Or even more radically, +20% speed AND power. Or even regenerating 5% HP per turn while active in weather.

I think if the elemental ability is going to remain weather dependent, a straight buff would be better than the current system because of the elemental pets with beneficial weathers, who really get hurt by being unable to use their own weather. Elementals with an adverse weather would get some benefit either way. And if nobody's using weather, well, it's no worse a passive than they have right now.
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90 Tauren Hunter
9365
Critters having complete immunity to CC suddenly makes spiders feel less loved.


Spiders are already pretty strong in pvp against non-critters. I see them all the time, and I almost never see critters. The only critters I ever see are fast rabbits. And CC is already pretty useless against them. If Critters start showing up in PVP more, I tend to think that would be GOOD news for spiders, even with the buff.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18455
Guys/gals, you need to think about current prevalence of the battle pet family in addition to the passive. The Critter passive buff likely won't break the game because Critters are currently incredibly rare to see outside of Rabbits (against which CC is already totally useless).

A big part of the problem is this issue.
Always useful passives: Beast, Flying, Humanoid, Mechanical, and Undead
Situational passives: Aquatic, Critter, Dragonkin, Elemental, and Magic

In terms of relative power, it is something like the following:
  • God Tier: Undead
  • Great Tier: Beast and Mechanical
  • Good Tier: Critter and Humanoid
  • Okay Tier: Elemental and Flying
  • Bad Tier: Dragonkin and Magic
  • Awful Tier: Aquatic

Note the similarities between the two lists - always useful passives are just better in general right now. To even this out without just making them all always useful or all always situational, you need to make sure the situational passives provide a BIG situational advantage to make up for the fact that they won't be doing anything a lot of the time.

04/23/2013 06:30 AMPosted by Stygimoloch
Maybe it should trigger on a kill?


If the Dragon Racial triggered on a kill it would be way better.

Posted by Simca
They just need to drop 'logic' from their priorities on the Elemental racial and make it ignore all negative effects and still gain all positive effects.


This sounds like the recipe for a super buggy and unpredictable ability. You would have to almost write code for each kind of weather to spell out how it would interact with Elementals.

Yeah, you would, but there aren't that many types of weather. It wouldn't be that bad.

Agreed on the dragon racial activating on kill as long as it is in ADDITION to activating at low HP.
Edited by Simca on 4/23/2013 2:19 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
9105
04/23/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Alona
They don't rely on it for their racial. (Though they do rely on it for the added damage to aquatic moves.) It's just another overlap, much like shell shield on crabs, that makes their racial more useless atm.


I suppose 50% less dot uptime minus 1 from rain is pretty close to immunity, if not outright immune, depending on the dot.
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I don't think 50% reduction on swap in is good for elementals. Its too limited. Maybe something like dragonkin where they take less damage for the turn after sending an opponent below 25%
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90 Tauren Hunter
9365
04/23/2013 05:03 PMPosted by Sennel
I don't think 50% reduction on swap in is good for elementals. Its too limited.


I'm not sure. I'd actually like to try it. Currently swapping pets has a huge opportunity cost. The idea of pets that actually benefit from swapping is kind of interesting.

If you ran a team of Elementals, it might even have the potential to be OP. Say maybe a team of dot/heal elementals. Sounds like an awful team to fight against if you don't have an aquatic.

I am getting excited about the idea of critters and aquatics becoming relevant.
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90 Tauren Hunter
9365
Posted by Stygimoloch
Maybe it should trigger on a kill?

If the Dragon Racial triggered on a kill it would be way better.


Agreed on the dragon racial activating on kill as long as it is in ADDITION to activating at low HP.


Yeah, but then would it trigger on the low hp AND the subsequent kill as well? Seems like they were trying to get away from that with the last patch. Maybe it should just be extra damage on pets below 25% health. Similar to the beast racial but based on the opposing pet's health rather than on the dragon's. This would give dragons that "always useful" quality you are looking for.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
18705
Critter passive could be a 50% lower chance for CC to take hold.

If implemented correctly, this would allow them to ignore all the "25% chance to _____" abilities, but still be hit (half the time at least) by 100% chance ones, like a deep freeze under the effects of chill, etc.

They'd still be a compelling anti-CC counter and it would be pretty straightforward I think.

Not sure what changing the magic racial from 40% to 35% will do -- as they can still be killed in 3 hits, same as it is now.
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90 Undead Rogue
4535
Critter passive could be a 50% lower chance for CC to take hold.


I think that would be a bad idea. Because you are talking about lottery here. And most people can't stand lottery, it's why patch 5.3 is removing base miss/dodge since it's frustrating so many players.

Randomness is something people expect from frogs with their kiss ability, but most people don't like that type of game play.
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90 Troll Warrior
13875
I think critters should be completely immune to the negative effects of CC and Aquatic should be completely immune to the damage of dots but both should still be applied and benefits to the attacking pets should continue.

For example if a critter was stunned, it should still have a stun debuff and abilities which increase damage while stunned should continue to do so but the critter can still attack while stunned.

Similarly, if a aquatic pet gets a bleeding debuff, they should take no damage from the bleed, but attacks which are increased by bleeding pets should still beneift from the bleeding status.
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23 Troll Druid
9995
04/22/2013 12:16 PMPosted by Crithto
For example, if your opponent has a pet that gains an additional attack in a Blizzard, they will still get the additional attack against your elemental pet.


But... that's wrong. I've used moves like that, such as Ice Lance on an elemental pet, and it always only hits once because they're ignoring the Chilled effect from the Blizzard that's up. Maybe this was changed but my friend made a specific team to null that against me.
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