So seems druids are bad again this tier... =/

100 Orc Shaman
HC
19310
04/18/2013 09:17 AMPosted by Sadiemay
those are tooltip fixes


When you getting your hair back?


Blizzard knows my character is just too hot with hair, so they're forcing me to look ugly when I post =[.
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100 Troll Druid
10370
Satan... We talked about this ;) Word usage means everything! "Dead last", "bad", etc imply things that we are not.

I will say that in 10m, while raiding heroics, is utterly frustrating to me. Not because I can't pull numbers, but because of the tank healing required that I cannot provide while the raid also requires attention. A lot of the times shrooms could really mean a lot, they could have been a lifesaver to many people had they been used. But I'm finding that 50% of the time I don't have the time to place them/power them up because everyone else needs my focus. Siiigghhhhh.

There's a pattern of extreme tank damage along with extreme raid damage, and I cannot support the tank healing role well enough to keep my mana where it needs to be to be OK for the rest of the fight. We 2heal these heroics, so it's not like he and I can specifically assign a role. You just can't, you need each other's help. And, as it's been brought to my attention numerous times, every other class in my place would be able to do what I cannot PLUS some.


Sorry bad wording because of frustration... i did so much to bring my paladin to the right gear lvl, only to be forced back to my druid, and the feeling of going back to my druid and hearing that podcast destroyed any hope of having fun healing again.

But yes, you are right.
We have problem in 25-m because we lack a real raid healing spell, and we suffer in 10-m now because our toolkit isn't able to deal with tank spiked damage plus raid healing without suffering of major mana problems, and that forces us into spirit, that the lowers our output risking deaths and lowering our numbers.

In the end the way raid design is right now, either they give us a instant cd-less raid healing tool that works for spread fights, or they just buff our numbers enough to band-aid fix us enough to be worth bringing a druid.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
There's a pattern of extreme tank damage along with extreme raid damage, and I cannot support the tank healing role well enough to keep my mana where it needs to be to be OK for the rest of the fight.


That's not an issue that's faced by Druids. Holy Priests and Monks have arguably worse tank healing than Resto Druids since they don't have Lifeblooms or clearcasted Regrowths/NS for the tanks.

How much does Flash Heal cost you? How much does it heal for when in the right chakra? How much does your hot heal for? How long does it last? How much does Renew heal for? And after everything I've learned about monks, and talked to w/ other monks, monks are one of the better tank healers out there.
Edited by Fleurs on 4/18/2013 9:31 AM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
10370
The fact is that right now healing in raid resumes to:
1- Efficient smart healing
2- Spammable aoe healing spells
3- Single target bursty heals to cover tanks
4- Absorbs that can be distributed over the entire raid

Those are the 4 things that are efficient right now. (Both Paladins and Disc have more or less this entire toolkit, the further classes are from this, the worse they are right now.)
We have the number 3 more or less, but lack 1, 2 and 4.

If we focus on tank, we cannot raid heal, because we need 10 seconds just to bring our entire output hotting everyone to take big hit.
If we do that, we leave the tank to himself for those 10 sec, and that can kill him.

Another option for them is to change mushroom to something really useful.
Reduce the cap to 66% of HP, and make it a 30yds area of heal, and we are good.
Edited by Sàtàn on 4/18/2013 9:37 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
How much does Flash Heal cost you? How much does it heal for when in the right chakra? How much does your hot heal for? How long does it last? And after everything I've learned about monks, and talked to w/ other monks, monks are one of the better tank healers out there.


The right Chakra is Sanctuary 99% of the time. Flash Heal costs 17k mana for 100k healing with an added 25k from EoL Renew ticks 4 times for ~13k each, costs 7800 mana, and doesn't scale with Mastery.

Monks may be good tank healers if they focus exclusively on the tank, but they lose so much healing in return, whereas a Druid doesn't lose much from keeping LBx3 or using Clearcasted Regrowths on the tank.
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100 Troll Druid
10370
Ceddya do you really believe we have Clearcasting the time tanks takes the spiked damage?

It doesn't proc that much, and most of the time its proc is wasted to renew LB timer, because no meaningful damage is happening at that time.

LBx3 does nothing to help against spiked damage, and that kills tank, not lower constant one.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
He's not wrong though. Druids are viable this tier, but they're outpaced by Monks and Holy Priests. Although, Resto Druids are pretty great on H-Lei Shen for the sheer fact that they can cheese Static Shocks!


I suppose it depends on your definition of "outpaced". I posted the links, but at this point, I have little faith that anyone will actually look at the numbers. If this discussion is going to happen, the person writing the post and making the claim should, at a minimum, post the actual numbers. If, after looking at them, folks still want to say druids are "bad", have at it.

25H (all parses):
The spread between druids, shaman, disc priests, and monks is just under 7K, from 65K to 72K. Holy pallies are a touch higher at 76K and holy priests are at 82K

Paladin Holy 76,268.0
Monk Mistweaver 71,869.0
Priest Discipline 69,852.0
Shaman Restoration 69,749.0
Druid Restoration 65,575.0


25H (top 100):
IMO, this metric is of almost no use at all given that top parses frequently have to do more with gimmicks or excessive raid damage. But in any event, druids and holy priests are low for top parses. The spread between the other four healer specs is 8K.

Paladin Holy 104,104.0
Priest Discipline 97,486.0
Shaman Restoration 97,278.5
Monk Mistweaver 96,697.5
Priest Holy 88,855.0
Druid Restoration 83,934.0


10H (all parses):
The spread between *all* specs is 11K.

Priest Discipline 64,707.5
Priest Holy 63,663.5
Paladin Holy 62,018.5
Monk Mistweaver 58,627.0
Druid Restoration 53,535.0
Shaman Restoration 53,292.0


10H (top 100):
Again, I still think looking at top 100 is useless. The spread between holy priests, druids, shaman, and monks is 9K. Holy pallies and disc priests are both 10K above monks at 92K.

Priest Discipline 92,493.0
Paladin Holy 92,383.0
Monk Mistweaver 82,209.0
Shaman Restoration 78,630.0
Druid Restoration 78,020.0
Priest Holy 73,506.0
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
04/18/2013 09:36 AMPosted by Ceddya
How much does Flash Heal cost you? How much does it heal for when in the right chakra? How much does your hot heal for? How long does it last? And after everything I've learned about monks, and talked to w/ other monks, monks are one of the better tank healers out there.


The right Chakra is Sanctuary 99% of the time. Flash Heal costs 17k mana for 100k healing with an added 25k from EoL Renew ticks 4 times for ~13k each, costs 7800 mana, and doesn't scale with Mastery.

Monks may be good tank healers if they focus exclusively on the tank, but they lose so much healing in return, whereas a Druid doesn't lose much from keeping LBx3 or using Clearcasted Regrowths on the tank.

I'm not able to log on my druid atm and check #s so I'll do it later, but regardless of that, I think it's the same story different class. Holy priests and resto druids have been quite similar for the last 2 xpacs. So whatever druids are feeling, you can bet holy priests feel it too. So, I wouldn't doubt that.

But, the discussion was brought up for rdruids and I thought to just bring to the table what I'm currently experiencing. Lack of a toolkit to deal with numerous situations. There is literally pretty much a void in our toolkit, that can only be filled with rejuv spamming :(

Monks may be good tank healers if they focus exclusively on the tank, but they lose so much healing in return, whereas a Druid doesn't lose much from keeping LBx3 or using Clearcasted Regrowths on the tank.

I was talking to some people all about this, trust me when I say that I had/have the most precaution when deciding who's going to be a more worthwhile tank healer... But, from what these monks have showed me, they lost little to nothing =\ And can react in a split second with immediate healing that outshines other classes.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
04/18/2013 09:30 AMPosted by Fleurs


That's not an issue that's faced by Druids. Holy Priests and Monks have arguably worse tank healing than Resto Druids since they don't have Lifeblooms or clearcasted Regrowths/NS for the tanks.

How much does Flash Heal cost you? How much does it heal for when in the right chakra? How much does your hot heal for? How long does it last? How much does Renew heal for? And after everything I've learned about monks, and talked to w/ other monks, monks are one of the better tank healers out there.


They buffed the snot out of our tank CD so it's worth using now, and haven't really nerfed Healing Sphere. I don't deny the effectiveness of Healing Sphere spam as it's one of the most underrated spells in the game atm, but if that ever takes a hit (and it might at some point thanks to PvP), Monk tank healing effectiveness would nosedive.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Ceddya do you really believe we have Clearcasting the time tanks takes the spiked damage?

It doesn't proc that much, and most of the time its proc is wasted to renew LB timer, because no meaningful damage is happening at that time.

LBx3 does nothing to help against spiked damage, and that kills tank, not lower constant one.


Both of them are still more incidental tank healing than what is provided by a Monk and Holy Priest. You also have a NS to help with tank spikes if needed.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13730
Ok, lets start to show raid bot numbers to people that fail to know how to use it:

...irony alert...

How are you misreading? Let me count the ways.

1) You're using median on 'all parses'. As I said above, that does a poor job of predicting either your spec's top performance or your value to a raid group.

2) You say this:
Now go for top 75 Percentile, and see Druid dropping and shaman rising alittle.
Go for top 100 and we are more or less tied with the Shamans.

clearly demonstrating that you still don't understand the difference between top 100 and a percentile measurement, or why top 100 is bad.

3) You think 10H Raidbots rankings mean anything in a tier where everyone and their mother is 2-healing with a disc priest or a paladin. Seriously, Disc and Paladin together account for 58% of all 10H healer logs. With representation that skewed, top 100 is completely LOL, and even percentile measurements aren't really going to unskew it very well.

Now, druids may have issues in 10H. I'm going to defer to Fleurs on that, since she's the only one saying anything useful in this thread. But Raidbots links are not helping your case at all. Stop posting them and start actually saying useful things, and maybe people will listen to you.
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100 Troll Druid
10370
Taymage: A Spreed of 11k is like ~20% more then the lower classes are doing, this is an unacceptable difference, when the classes at the top bring that plus better utility like paladins.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I was talking to some people all about this, trust me when I say that I had/have the most precaution when deciding who's going to be a more worthwhile tank healer... But, from what these monks have showed me, they lost little to nothing =\ And can react in a split second with immediate healing that outshines other classes.


I'll take your word on that. I've never actually healed with a Monk, so I'm just basing this on what I've seen from vids or my own experiences.

04/18/2013 09:43 AMPosted by Fleurs
I'm not able to log on my druid atm and check #s so I'll do it later, but regardless of that, I think it's the same story different class. Holy priests and resto druids have been quite similar for the last 2 xpacs. So whatever druids are feeling, you can bet holy priests feel it too. So, I wouldn't doubt that.


I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with your tookit in a 25-man, it's just that the sustained healing from Druids during high damage phases is, for one reason or another, simply not keeping up with that of Monks or Holy Priests.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Taymage: A Spreed of 11k is like ~20% more then the lower classes are doing, this is an unacceptable difference, when the classes at the top bring that plus better utility like paladins.


Shaman are below druids in the 10H (all parses) metric where the spread is 11K. Will you be writing a thread titled "So seems shaman are bad again this tier . . . =/"?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13730
25H (top 100):
IMO, this metric is of almost no use at all given that top parses frequently have to do more with gimmicks or excessive raid damage. But in any event, druids and holy priests are low for top parses. The spread between the other four healer specs is 8K.

That's not the worst problem with top 100.

The worst problem with top 100 25H is that it's currently comparing the top 1.57% of paladins, the top 1.86% of disc priests, the top 1.96% of shamans, the top 3.14% of monks, the top 3.48% of druids, and the top 5.09% of holy priests as if those groups are equivalent.

(Top 100 10H is even worse: 1.49% of disc priests, 1.69% of paladins, 3.06% of shamans, 3.21% of druids, 4.95% of monks, and 18.7% of holy priests. And aside from Tortos and Jin'rokh, you're looking at 100% of holy priests - for example, all eight of them who have logged Horridon 10H.)

If you're interested in how specs perform at/near their maximum potential with gimmicks included, 99th percentile is an appropriate measurement. If you want to cut out most of the outliers and gimmicks while still looking at high-end performance, 90th or 95th percentile will work reasonably well.
Edited by Kaels on 4/18/2013 9:58 AM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
10370
Kaels:
Ok, want arguments outside of Raidbots?

I will resume it the best i can:

- We lack good utilities like paladins and Shamans have. Tranquility is not that great anymore.

- We lack a cd-less raid healing tool. We are forced to raid heal with Rejuvenation, making us the class with the most overhealing of all, maybe just comparable to monks.

- Our single target heals are resumed to Glyphed Regrowth, and its too mana consuming, but i have to agree that its hits for a good amount.

- Haste does very little to us right now. Its mathematically proved that mastery is better then haste in all situations, outside needing to heal someone very fast because they might die. We cannot go for further haste caps, because next Reju one is on an unavailable number for this expansion.

- We have mana problems, Clearcasting is not good. Most of the time its useless in fact, because you have no control over it. It procs when you don't need, and fails to proc when you need. The problem is that it will happen more often then not.
Most of the time we are raid healing, and there is little windows of high tank spiked damage that happens over the fight, and at those times we need regrowth, not on others, and those are very little number of seconds over the entire course of the fight, so the time we need them over the total time of the fight is narrow because you need to use the spell ASAP, so the chance you have Clearcasting proc when you really need it is WAY lower then you might expect.

- Mushrooms are great when they can be used, but cant be used on most of the fights.
The area is too small, and since its not something that we put on the ground every X seconds, and that people can see they are out and move in, but a small thing that no ones see during the raid, and that we need to charge up for long time, to do an instant heal, if people doesn't need to move from there because of fight mechanics.
Either make it pulse the healing in the same area of a healing rain, or make it 30yrds of radius, to have the same area of big area heals.

- We have no absorption, and no way to increase people HP, and we have no raid damage reduction CD, so we are the worse healer at preventing huge damage mechanics like Dark Animus Jolt to cause eventual deaths, and maybe even a wipe because of said deaths.

- We are forced to go for alot of spirit if we want to blanket Hot the raid, but if we do so we fall even more in HPS, if we go for int/mastery we will OOM in tough fights.

- Because critical isnt particularly good for us, it does us no more good then doubling the heal, different from paladin and discs that gains other benefits from it, and hast over 3043 being useless, we are in the worst shape for scaling.

I could go on, but right now those are the problems on top of my head.
Edited by Sàtàn on 4/18/2013 10:02 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
If you're interested in how specs perform at/near their maximum potential with gimmicks included, 99th percentile is an appropriate measurement. If you want to cut out most of the outliers and gimmicks while still looking at high-end performance, 90th or 95th percentile will work reasonably well.


Do you know what the raidbots "default measure" displays / corrects for?

Edit:

Kaels:
Ok, want arguments outside of Raidbots?


He's not saying you shouldn't look at combat log aggregators. He's explaining why the variables you selected are not helpful.
Edited by Taymage on 4/18/2013 10:02 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13730
Do you know what the raidbots "default measure" displays / corrects for?

Default on HPS is the median. Default on Spec Score is the mean. That's true for both data sets (top 100 and all parses), although obviously the values are different.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
04/18/2013 10:03 AMPosted by Kaels
Default on HPS is the median. Default on Spec Score is the mean.


Hmm. I don't think so. It lets you select "median" separately from "default measure"
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