So seems druids are bad again this tier... =/

90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I could go on, but right now those are the problems on top of my head.


You've practically described the same issues faced by every non-Disc Priest/Paladin. Absorb based healers are almost always going to do better on the meters, and those numbers mean very little.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/18/2013 10:07 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
He's not saying you shouldn't look at combat log aggregators. He's explaining why the variables you selected are not helpful.

I actually am kind of saying he should stop looking at them - not because they're always bad, but because 10H has some serious problems right now with representation and raid comp standardization that makes pretty much every way of viewing the data misleading. Since he's mostly talking 10s, and since 10N data always has issues, it's probably best to leave them out of the discussion for the moment.

His post about the mechanical issues is actually quite a lot more helpful.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
Hmm. I don't think so. It lets you select "median" separately from "default measure"

It does, but you'll find you get the same results. (In fact, if you look at the title above the graph, it's even labeled "Median" when you select Default.)
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
04/18/2013 10:05 AMPosted by Ceddya
I could go on, but right now those are the problems on top of my head.


You've practically described the same issues faced by every non-Disc Priest/Paladin. Absorb based healers are almost always going to do better on the meters, and those numbers mean very little.

That's a bit unfair. Some of what he said is pretty universal, but he did talk about mushroom range/timing issues and Clearcasting RNG, both of which are unique to druids (although monks have a somewhat similar RNG complaint).
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
That's a bit unfair. Some of what he said is pretty universal, but he did talk about mushroom range/timing issues and Clearcasting RNG, both of which are unique to druids (although monks have a somewhat similar RNG complaint).


Clearcasting may be RNG, but it's still quite often free healing. Out of the many points he made, the only real valid issue is that with Wild Mushrooms.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
- We lack good utilities like paladins and Shamans have. Tranquility is not that great anymore.


I wouldn't discount the utility brought by Resto Druids. Tranq is still a great throughput CD, and is one of the few raid CDs that can be used while moving when coupled with Spiritwalker's Grace. Symbiosis is also amazing, and Stampeding Roar has many uses this tier.

Druids also have plenty when it comes to personal utility or survivalbility - Cloak/IB are really useful on many fights (most notably H-Lei Shen), Barkskin can be used to prevent one-shots and Displacer Beast provides you with so much mobility.

- We lack a cd-less raid healing tool. We are forced to raid heal with Rejuvenation, making us the class with the most overhealing of all, maybe just comparable to monks.


Mechanically, what exactly is the issue with Rejuv as a raid heal? Unlike other raid wide or party based heals, Rejuv actually gives you the flexibility of spot healing those who need it most.

- Our single target heals are resumed to Glyphed Regrowth, and its too mana consuming, but i have to agree that its hits for a good amount.


The fast, direct heal for every other healer is also rather inefficient and mana consuming. Most of them don't heal for as much as Glyphed Regrowth does though.

- Haste does very little to us right now. Its mathematically proved that mastery is better then haste in all situations, outside needing to heal someone very fast because they might die. We cannot go for further haste caps, because next Reju one is on an unavailable number for this expansion.


Haste past your breakpoint is a bad stat, sure, but you still have a highly viable option with Mastery.

- We have mana problems, Clearcasting is not good. Most of the time its useless in fact, because you have no control over it. It procs when you don't need, and fails to proc when you need. The problem is that it will happen more often then not.


Your mana issue will be addressed with better gear, and you'd find yourself hard pressed to go OOM once you obtain the legendary meta. I agree that Clearcasting may be RNG, but it's still free healing regardless.

- We have no absorption, and no way to increase people HP, and we have no raid damage reduction CD, so we are the worse healer at preventing huge damage mechanics like Dark Animus Jolt to cause eventual deaths, and maybe even a wipe because of said deaths.


This is true for every non-absorb based healer. As for your specific example of Jolts, using Tranq to top off your raid before the Jolts works really well.

- We are forced to go for alot of spirit if we want to blanket Hot the raid, but if we do so we fall even more in HPS, if we go for int/mastery we will OOM in tough fights.


The situation with Spirit stacking is true for every non-Monk healer. Although, the Resto Druid I raid with tells me that he's having much less issues with mana after obtaining the legendary meta.

- Because critical isnt particularly good for us, it does us no more good then doubling the heal, different from paladin and discs that gains other benefits from it, and hast over 3043 being useless, we are in the worst shape for scaling.


Crit isn't particularly good for many classes too. I understand that Haste is useless paste the breakpoint, but what exactly is wrong with your Mastery?

- Mushrooms are great when they can be used, but cant be used on most of the fights.


This I agree with. Mushrooms could certainly do with some mechanical changes.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/18/2013 10:43 AM PDT
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
18945
This I agree with. Mushrooms could certainly do with some mechanical changes.


What is so wrong with mushrooms? They're meant to be a situational tool for periods of burst. Our Druid is amazing with mushrooms and sure they may not be doing 20% of her healing, but when they're used it's the strongest raid burst tool in the game not to mention the skill potential should be welcome. In 10m it's basically a revival or a loh for tanks.

Situationally mushrooms are awesome even though they may be clunky but just know that if they made them with the intent they would be used constantly, they would get a huge nerf. So sure they're clunky, but making them less clunky means they become more used which falls back on my last statement ;s. We all want our cake and to eat it too, but sadly it doesn't work like that.
Edited by Sensations on 4/18/2013 11:04 AM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
10370

I wouldn't discount the utility brought by Resto Druids. Tranq is still a great throughput CD, and is one of the few raid CDs that can be used while moving when coupled with Spiritwalker's Grace. Symbiosis is also amazing, and Stampeding Roar has many uses this tier.


SL+HTT is way more real utility, and so is paladin Hands, plus CDs, plus Devotion.

Tranquility needs you to have a shaman, use your symbiosis, just to be almost equivalent to HTT, that heals the same, but the shaman can keep healing at the same time.

Stampeding Roar is useful, in very specific fights. And it will never be equivalent to a raid wide damage reduction CD, or even Hand of Protection+Hand of Purity.


Druids also have plenty when it comes to personal utility or survivalbility - Cloak/IB are really useful on many fights (most notably H-Lei Shen), Barkskin can be used to prevent one-shots and Displacer Beast provides you with so much mobility.


Cloak? I think you are talking boomkin not Resto.
Barkskin is only 20% reduction... seriously you want to compare against other healers?
And i agree that displacer beast is great for personal mobility, but every class has a mobility talent.


Mechanically, what exactly is the issue with Rejuv as a raid heal? Unlike other raid wide or party based heals, Rejuv actually gives you the flexibility of spot healing those who need it most.


That its inefficient?
You need to waste 1 sec to place each rejuvenation, you need 10 sec to cover the entire raid, for a total of 87k of mana.
Each tick heals for 23k every ~2.8 sec.
When you finish rejuving the last one, the first is ending.

The problem with reju as raid healing, is that you cannot bring everyone up fast enough.
If you pre-hot you will overheal like crazy, and will OOM, if you wait to heal when damage happens you will take to long to help, and the other healers will top the raid meaning your hots will only overheal.

For HoTs to be useful, you need them the entire time on the target, so that as soon as he takes damage the hot heals, and they need to be VERY efficient mana wise, to worth doing so.
Right now HoTS are expensive, and inefficient, if you wait people to take damage so you can hot, you are in fact doing 23k of healing / 8700 of mana, because the target will be topped before the hot can do its second tick.

Give us Prayer of Healing, or Holy Radiance+LoD for example, and see what we will be using when raid takes damage, those aoe heals or Reju...

AoE heals are VERY VERY efficient when they heal 5+ targets.
Go look at each one of them, its absurd how much HPS they produce, and how little is the HP/M. Our super efficient heal is tied to a CD, and was nerfed to the ground on Cata and never recovered.


The fast, direct heal for every other healer is also rather inefficient and mana consuming. Most of them don't heal for as much as Glyphed Regrowth does though.


But other healers have more efficient ways to deal with tank damage, like beacon, penance + shield, etc... we only have hots that are useless against spiked damage, and Regrowth.


Haste past your breakpoint is a bad stat, sure, but you still have a highly viable option with Mastery.


You cannot reforge everything out of Haste and Crit, so you lose stats as gear improves.


Your mana issue will be addressed with better gear, and you'd find yourself hard pressed to go OOM once you obtain the legendary meta. I agree that Clearcasting may be RNG, but it's still free healing regardless.


No its not free healing when most of the time its overheal just to reset lifebloom timer because clearcast will falls off and there is nothing to heal at that time.


This is true for every non-absorb based healer. As for your specific example of Jolts, using Tranq to top off your raid before the Jolts works really well.


And take the silence? =X
Topping everyone will result in people dying because of Fountain, or swap near the same time.
Other healers have CDs they can use to save the raid. We can only top the raid, reju some people and pray the gods of RGN that everything ends up ok.


Crit isn't particularly good for many classes too. I understand that Haste is useless paste the breakpoint, but what exactly is wrong with your Mastery?


When gear increases you will fatally be unable to reforge enough haste to stay at 3043, and you will always get some crit gear, and you cant reforge 100%, meaning when your gear improves you gain less then classes with 2 good secondaries.
Edited by Sàtàn on 4/18/2013 11:08 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
What is so wrong with mushrooms? They're meant to be a situational tool for periods of burst. Our Druid is amazing with mushrooms and sure they may not be doing 20% of her healing, but when they're used it's the strongest raid burst tool in the game not to mention the skill potential should be welcome. In 10m it's basically a revival or a loh for tanks.


IDK, I never liked the idea of having a spell be situationally useful if there aren't any alternatives. Priests would actually be in a similar situation, but thankfully we're given 3 viable options when it comes to our level 90 talents.
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100 Troll Druid
10370
04/18/2013 10:57 AMPosted by Sensations
This I agree with. Mushrooms could certainly do with some mechanical changes.


What is so wrong with mushrooms? They're meant to be a situational tool for periods of burst. Our Druid is amazing with mushrooms and sure they may not be doing 20% of her healing, but when they're used it's the strongest raid burst tool in the game not to mention the skill potential should be welcome. In 10m it's basically a revival or a loh for tanks.

Situationally mushrooms are awesome even though they may be clunky but just know that if they made them with the intent they would be used constantly, they would get a huge nerf. So sure they're clunky, but making them less clunky means they become more used which falls back on my last statement ;s. We all want our cake and to eat it too, but sadly it doesn't work like that.


Sensations, what i don't like about it, is that it requires the raid to work around it so that it can be useful.
And even then it requires the fill up, and sometimes the raid needs to move and everything is lost...

I prefer a weaker version that can be used every time, and acts as our raid wide healing tool, then this one that is super strong in specific situations.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
04/18/2013 10:57 AMPosted by Sensations
This I agree with. Mushrooms could certainly do with some mechanical changes.


What is so wrong with mushrooms? They're meant to be a situational tool for periods of burst. Our Druid is extremely good with mushrooms and sure they may not be doing 20% of her healing, but when they're used it's the strongest raid burst tool in the game. In 10m it's basically a revival or a loh for tanks.


I think most of the complaints would be gone if they were easier to use. Several of the problems with mushrooms involve factors that are completely out of the Druid's control, which I can understand the frustrations with. Whether it's something that just sounds wrong on a mechanical level (make sure you have overhealing with one of your fairly expensive spells on a regular basis!), to a huge "charge up time" for a spell with an incredibly short range at the mercy of RNG on most fights, to the inability to even tell the mushroom's explosion range at a glance. "Clunky" is an understatement.

It's one of those abilities that is super OP in fights that are going to cater to it, while being near useless in most others. I personally hate abilities like that, because they are almost always "toned down" as soon as folks actually get to take advantage of them on a regular basis.
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04/18/2013 09:18 AMPosted by Fleurs
Satan... We talked about this ;) Word usage means everything! "Dead last", "bad", etc imply things that we are not.


the tank healing required that I cannot provide while the raid also requires attention.


But I'm finding that 50% of the time I don't have the time to place them/power them up because everyone else needs my focus.


I cannot support the tank healing role well enough to keep my mana where it needs to be to be OK for the rest of the fight.


And, as it's been brought to my attention numerous times, every other class in my place would be able to do what I cannot PLUS some.


If the above quotes do not equal "bad", what would? I'd say bad is a good word to describe the current situation.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with your tookit in a 25-man, it's just that the sustained healing from Druids during high damage phases is, for one reason or another, simply not keeping up with that of Monks or Holy Priests.


I suspect it has more to do with the nature of the damage. Yes, there's some pulse damage, but a LOT of the damage is burst damage of a nature that needs immediate healing. Can't wait for HoTs to tick.

On the H Durumu pulls I've been doing, I'm pretty easily stomping on the Druids, or keeping up with them, despite my lack of gear in comparison (they're better geared than I am) and my general lack of skill as a Holy Priest.

Which reminds me, I need to get Schwert to poke you because I have a few questions. :-P
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
SL+HTT is way more real utility, and so is paladin Hands, plus CDs, plus Devotion.

Tranquility needs you to have a shaman, use your symbiosis, just to be almost equivalent to HTT, that heals the same, but the shaman can keep healing at the same time.

Stampeding Roar is useful, in very specific fights. And it will never be equivalent to a raid wide damage reduction CD, or even Hand of Protection+Hand of Purity.


Those two healers have great utility, but what about comparing your utility to that of Holy Priests and Monks? Although, if you're arguing for the homogenization of raid utility brought by the healers, that's not something I'd entirely disagree with.

Also, the point is that Tranq has the option of being used when moving. Other raid CDs like SS and DHymn can be highly disrupted on high movement fights.

Comparing Stampeding to DR CDs is like comparing apples to oranges. The usefulness of DR CDs doesn't preclude the fact that Stampeding provides very useful utility on quite a few fights this tier.

Cloak? I think you are talking boomkin not Resto.
Barkskin is only 20% reduction... seriously you want to compare against other healers?
And i agree that displacer beast is great for personal mobility, but every class has a mobility talent.


You still have IB or Deterrence. Barkskin is still 20% DR more than what most healers have. I wouldn't discount the usefulness of having a personal CD on a 1 min timer.

The instant blink from Displacer Beast also trumps any movement speed increase. Seriously, it allows you to trivialize many raid mechanics if utilized well.

That its inefficient?
You need to waste 1 sec to place each rejuvenation, you need 10 sec to cover the entire raid, for a total of 87k of mana.
Each tick heals for 23k every ~2.8 sec.
When you finish rejuving the last one, the first is ending.


Right, and I need to waste ~2.3 seconds to cast each PoH. The main issue with Rejuv isn't the fact that you need to spend time covering the raid with it, after all, every other healer needs to spend similar amounts of time to heal the whole raid. It's the fact that its HoT-based nature makes it very prone to sniping, which is something Wild Mushrooms could have addressed if it wasn't such a limited heal.

On fights with pulsing damage though, I don't see any mechanical issues with Rejuv.

AoE heals are VERY VERY efficient when they heal 5+ targets.
Go look at each one of them, its absurd how much HPS they produce, and how little is the HP/M. Our super efficient heal is tied to a CD, and was nerfed to the ground on Cata and never recovered.


If you actually looked closely at logs, you'd see that PoH does equally high overhealing. Also, unless the raid is stacked, its party based restriction makes it prone to range limitations and getting sniped by raid wide smart heals.

Overall though, PoH hasn't been the top heal for both flavours of healing Priests in quite some time.

You cannot reforge everything out of Haste and Crit, so you lose stats as gear improves.


Is having excessive Haste an issue Resto Druids face yet? The Haste breakpoint for Druids running SotF seems prety high for it them to have too much Haste to reforge out of. I'm also looking at the armouries of Resto Druids without SotF, and they don't seem to have much issues with excess Haste even at ilvls of 520+. I guess we'll see if this becomes an actual issue next tier or when upgrades come back in 5.3.

But other healers have more efficient ways to deal with tank damage, like beacon, penance + shield, etc... we only have hots that are useless against spiked damage, and Regrowth.


I wouldn't use PW:S as an example of great tank healing. It's most often used to proc Raptures, which means that you can't always get PW:S up on the tank when they need it most.

I don't know why HoTs would be bad against spike damage though, considering that it functions decently as a healing buffer for the bigger direct heals to land.

No its not free healing when most of the time its overheal just to reset lifebloom timer because clearcast will falls off and there is nothing to heal at that time.


What about if Clearcasting procs during periods of high damage? On most fights this tier, tanks are pretty much constantly taking damage, even if the raid isn't.

And take the silence? =X
Topping everyone will result in people dying because of Fountain, or swap near the same time.
No other healers have CDs they can use to save the raid.


So time your Tranq to end just before the Jolt. And unlike CDs llike SS or DHymn, Tranq can actually be used while moving to avoid Fonts.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
1560
With 5.3 and pally mastery nerf those logs will even out more not to mention priest Atonement nerfs.

But this won't really help rdruids other than the ignorant drooling over recount.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13330
Our Druid is amazing with mushrooms and sure they may not be doing 20% of her healing, but when they're used it's the strongest raid burst tool in the game not to mention the skill potential should be welcome. In 10m it's basically a revival or a loh for tanks.

Fleurs is your druid, right? Or are you guys running in different raids? She discussed one of the issues with mushrooms here:
A lot of the times shrooms could really mean a lot, they could have been a lifesaver to many people had they been used. But I'm finding that 50% of the time I don't have the time to place them/power them up because everyone else needs my focus. Siiigghhhhh.

A reduction of the 3-GCD time commitment for placing them would probably be a big help. Some sort of visual indication of the range would also be welcome - I'm assuming HM raiders don't have trouble finding and standing on them, but normal raiders tend to miss them.
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