vol'jin 5.3 bluff called

100 Human Warlock
14400
Blizz wrote themselves into this corner when let whoever came up with the idea for Vol'Jin's flavour text to put it on the ptr. Sassing is one thing, but to use Sylvanas and the Forsaken was the worst possible idea.

As a PC, how do you think a Worgen would react to being sassed by Vol'Jin in that manner?

And like I said in my earlier post we (the player character) AREN'T diplomats. Every time were solve a problem it's by beating it over the head with a stick. As such sending us, alone, to make first contact with the rebels was a terrible idea.

As a sidenote to hearing about what goes on before we even meet with Vol'Jin I feel like it's a reversed scenario from what I wrote as an idea either in one of the many threads like this, or maybe over on MMO-champ, since I'd had the idea of Vol'Jin making his way to SW and being treated in a similar manner, while being guarded by Royal Guardsmen.
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100 Draenei Shaman
15600
@DaveKosak Thank you for giving us a way to call Vol'jin's bluff! It really means alot and made me smile :)

@Zerde3 Yeah it was definitely needed.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20725
Sylvanas hasn't shown up once this entire expansion. And is half way across the world doing who know what.


Didn't blizz say she was going to be a "Major Part" of MoP? I keep expecting the Forsaken to roll in every patch.

I guess Wrathion made a projection of her show up in his inn with the other Horde leaders during his "what is the horde" speech. She was a "Major Part" of that.
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100 Tauren Druid
8905
04/19/2013 04:02 PMPosted by Darigato
I kind of feel bad for Vol'jin though because he's being made to look stupid in the same way Tyrande was.


No, in the end swallowing his pride in order to supply the rebellion needed to stop Garrosh is a hundred times better than Tyrande being revealed as an impatient incompetent leader just so Varian can save the day with his "tactics"

If anything this "lump" to his pride is just as much writing for him as it is Alliance.


This is the point that a lot of people are overlooking-- the main theme of this upcoming patch is how our Pride affects us-- our factions, the people we interact with, and what we do with it.

The dialogue is written seemingly to stroke Alliance egos, but the bottom line of it is Vol'jin is transcending the Pride monster by admitting he needs help.

The Dwarf scenario deals with it in a sense (Pride is what drove the Wildhammers and Bronzebeards from refusing to deal with the Dark Irons), but you don't even get this sort of thing with Varian himself at all (especially from his letter).

In that regard Horde is still one-upping the Alliance. The Alliance's deal with the Pride monster hasn't been addressed yet.

ED: and I have this suspicion that Vol'jin somehow meets Shaohao in the upcoming novel and learns about that.
Edited by Seiryu on 4/19/2013 11:14 PM PDT
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
04/19/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Seiryu
Pride is what drove the Wildhammers and Bronzebeards from refusing to deal with the Dark Irons


Hah.

The Wildhammer and Bronzebeard deal with the Dark Iron every day. They didn't want to send their armies from Ironforge in case of a Dark Iron attack, which is not an unrealistic thing to expect.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15995
and I have this suspicion that Vol'jin somehow meets Shaohao in the upcoming novel and learns about that.


There's also that "mysterious Alliance soldier". Perhaps interacting with said soldier may adjust his views on pride.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17170
I *hate* the precedent this sets.

For me, faction leaders are VIPs in this quasi-medieval setting. Player characters should be talking to them with respect, even if they hate them and everything they stand for, the same way an English knight would have addressed a French king even during the height of hostilities. This just ruins the immersion for me.

I get that a few people like to role play like they are peers with the faction leaders. I thinks it's laughable, but I understand it happens. But writing that crap into the game is plain stupid. What's next - in 5.4 Horde players get to tell Varian to suck it?
Edited by Carmageddon on 4/20/2013 1:04 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
14395
I get that a few people like to role play like they are peers with the faction leaders. I thinks it's laughable, but I understand it happens. But writing that crap into the game is plain stupid. What's next - in 5.4 Horde players get to tell Varian to suck it?


The reality is that that the Darkspears and the Tauren who are currently the most involved in this rebellion are the weakest part of the horde while the orcs are the strongest. We can see from the PTR the strength of the Darkspear is a shadow of the might the orcs have. Frankly, even with Chen, Vol'jin and the Player the rebellion doesnt stand a chance unless the Forsaken and the BEs arrived right away or the Alliance props us up. We are too weak to do much more apart from piss Garrosh off and screw with his supply lines.

Vol'jin really has to beg. Frankly we are at the Alliance's mercy. Our choices are rely on the Alliance to prop us up or die symbolicly fighting Garrosh. For his people to survive Vol'jin and the rebellion in general will have to brown nose it since it wouldn't take much for the Alliance to see how outgunned the Darkspear are. Frankly the fact Vol'jin's first response was so antagonising made him look like an idiot.

Because of this Varian is safe from sass. The Alliance holds the position of power so frankly we wouldnt get away with being asshats to him.
Edited by Trook on 4/20/2013 2:06 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
15600
You know sometimes I wish someone could go back in time. Tell the devs. the controversy that would ensue from 5.3 and just either scrap/redesign everything from scratch. Unfortunately that is not gonna happen and we all have to accept(grudgingly at time) that neither side will get everything they would want from this patch.

Heck, I almost wish they would just combine 5.3 and 5.4. I am hoping that 5.4 wont have as much friction as 5.3.
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100 Pandaren Priest
22555
This made me smile.

We need to hurry up and kill Garrosh so the horde can get back to be special snowflake angel good guys supreme.

Cause you know its not the hordes fault.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20725
You know sometimes I wish someone could go back in time. Tell the devs. the controversy that would ensue from 5.3 and just either scrap/redesign everything from scratch. Unfortunately that is not gonna happen and we all have to accept(grudgingly at time) that neither side will get everything they would want from this patch.

Heck, I almost wish they would just combine 5.3 and 5.4. I am hoping that 5.4 wont have as much friction as 5.3.


I think you'd have to go back a lot farther than that. Like before they decided the Horde would be evil and the end boss of an expansion.
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100 Human Death Knight
18265
You know sometimes I wish someone could go back in time. Tell the devs. the controversy that would ensue from 5.3 and just either scrap/redesign everything from scratch. Unfortunately that is not gonna happen and we all have to accept(grudgingly at time) that neither side will get everything they would want from this patch.

Heck, I almost wish they would just combine 5.3 and 5.4. I am hoping that 5.4 wont have as much friction as 5.3.

I imagine they already knew.

I mean, maybe they thought the espionage stuff would go over better than it actually did. But surely they realized that Alliance players wouldn't like having less Alliance-themed content than Horde. And Vol'jin's initial dialogue was an outright jab at Alliance players who had expressed discontent at the thought of helping the rebellion when we have no reason to want to get involved.

The disconnect between Blizzard and the playerbase is baffling. Either they're truly clueless or they just don't care. Given the Vol'jin issue, I'm inclined to think the latter.
Edited by Tyrathius on 4/20/2013 2:52 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
14395
Heck, I almost wish they would just combine 5.3 and 5.4. I am hoping that 5.4 wont have as much friction as 5.3.


I would like to think so but Im not hugely optimistic. They are going to have to explain the ending of the war in 5.4. One way or another thats likely to be hard for one side to swallow. Hopefully we wont have anything like Vol'jin's dialog happen again but its going to be a very hard balance and an even harder sell.

If they pull it off I will be extremely impressed.
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100 Night Elf Death Knight
17335
All this proves is that the Alliance cynics around here are petty !@#$%^-s.

You've only proven that you don't really want your own 'story,' or 'development,' all you want is subjugation and destruction.

No better than Garrosh. Pathetic.


Choo-choo. All aboard the "I'm not so much here to discuss story as I am to roleplay my Horde/Alliance character!" train.

THIS, right here, is the big problem with these sort of threads. It's less people talking and more like real trolls/Orcs/Elves/Humans escaped Azeroth and are trying to defeat the Alliance/Horde by changing the minds of the gods who rule it.

You are not a troll, guy. Garrosh is not a real person. He is fictional. This forum is for discussing the fiction - not currently immersing ourselves in it and acting like in-world characters.

This goes for everyone here. You are not your characters.

See - if you WERE an actual troll (in-game one), then, yes, the Alliance being not-nice would be horrible and would show how they are out to get you and Ya People.

Since you are NOT a troll, it's called Character Development. The two factions do not have to be nice people through and through. And since I am not an actual elf, I don't need to be aghast at the Alliance having the option to be undiplomatic.

Not every Alliance member will choose this option - but concessions to the fact that, no, not every Alliance member is the spirit of love and cooperation who just wants to hug the Horde until the Horde gets tired of axing them in the face is a good thing.

The Alliance ARE NOT "the good guys". And Alliance players are getting tired of being so non-stop, just as Horde got tired of being "the villains".

This is not supposed to be a Good vs. Evil conflict.
Edited by Sylassanna on 4/20/2013 4:20 PM PDT
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04/19/2013 11:21 PMPosted by Gandred
Pride is what drove the Wildhammers and Bronzebeards from refusing to deal with the Dark Irons


Hah.

The Wildhammer and Bronzebeard deal with the Dark Iron every day. They didn't want to send their armies from Ironforge in case of a Dark Iron attack, which is not an unrealistic thing to expect.


Exactly. It is not Pride for the Wildhammer and Bronzebeard to think the Dark Irons are going to attack them. It's called "Remembering what happened last Tuesday." It wasn't that long ago that Moira used her own Dark Irons to put Ironforge under Martial Law and try to supress the other two clans along with the Gnomes.
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100 Human Paladin
19615
I *hate* the precedent this sets.

For me, faction leaders are VIPs in this quasi-medieval setting. Player characters should be talking to them with respect, even if they hate them and everything they stand for, the same way an English knight would have addressed a French king even during the height of hostilities. This just ruins the immersion for me.

I get that a few people like to role play like they are peers with the faction leaders. I thinks it's laughable, but I understand it happens. But writing that crap into the game is plain stupid. What's next - in 5.4 Horde players get to tell Varian to suck it?


Back in 3.3, the Lich King said the player characters who fought him were "Azeroth's greatest champions". He wanted the best of the best... and the heroes he sought to corrupt were not racial leaders, but PCs.

A level 90 PC may have been involved in defeating Ragnaros, Nefarian, C'Thun, Kel'Thuzad, Gruul, Vashj, Kael, Illidan, Kil'jaeden, Malygos, Yogg-Saron, Anub'arak, Arthas, Cho'gall, Al'Akir, Deathwing and/or Lei Shen (among many others). Meanwhile, Vol'jin had a hand in bringing down... Zalazane and Zar'jira.

Who should be treating who with respect here?
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Yeah, sorry, game mechanics aside, at this point a level 90 end-game PC is essentially a demi-god.
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100 Troll Shaman
19235
Meanwhile, Vol'jin had a hand in bringing down... Zalazane and Zar'jira.

With PC help...

...would show how they are out to get you and Ya People.

Hey! What do you mean "ya people"?
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100 Tauren Shaman
14395
Back in 3.3, the Lich King said the player characters who fought him were "Azeroth's greatest champions". He wanted the best of the best... and the heroes he sought to corrupt were not racial leaders, but PCs.

A level 90 PC may have been involved in defeating Ragnaros, Nefarian, C'Thun, Kel'Thuzad, Gruul, Vashj, Kael, Illidan, Kil'jaeden, Malygos, Yogg-Saron, Anub'arak, Arthas, Cho'gall, Al'Akir, Deathwing and/or Lei Shen (among many others). Meanwhile, Vol'jin had a hand in bringing down... Zalazane and Zar'jira.

Who should be treating who with respect here


Fair enough but that swings both ways. Imagine for a moment if instead of an Alliance player it was a Horde player and instead of Vol'jin it was Tyrande begging. What do you imagine the response would be?

I dont think they should have given Vol'jin such inflamatory dialog to begin with. They have just dug themselves into a hole here.
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I guess my issue is that I can't look at this in a vacuum. I mean, sure, Vol'jin has to humble himself a bit.

But Vol'jin also participated in a brutal attack that destroyed an entire Alliance nation not 6 months ago.

If I'm forced to help him instead of trying to kill him on the spot, the least he could do is not be a jerk toward me.
Edited by Jaelara on 4/20/2013 7:45 PM PDT
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