vol'jin 5.3 bluff called

90 Troll Shaman
17780
Next PTR build:

Andruin stands next to Vol'jin and lectures the alliance player if that player chooses that response...
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90 Human Warlock
0
I've updated my other "just the facts please" thread, but posting full dialog her for convenience...
Vol'jin Optional Dialog 2:
Question: Why should we help you? What if we kept the Barrens supplies for ourselves?
<Vol'jin cackles, the stench of his hot breath reeking in your nostrils.>

Oh, ya got annudda plan? I got anudda plan, too. I let ya siege Orgrimmar on ya own. See how far ya get. An' once da city be filled wit' corpses, den me shadow hunters come in, we mop up what left, kill Kor'kron an' Alliance alike. Give ya dead ta Sylvanas. Hmm! I save a lot a Darkspear lives wit' dis plan!

Mmnn? You don't like? Then we stay wit' da first plan. We work together.

We don't even have ta like each other.


New reply to the above added to PTR 4/18...

Question: [Call his bluff] Why don't WE wait until YOU attack Orgrimmar, and then mop up YOUR dead?
<Vol'jin sees his opportunity slipping away. He holds up his hands.>

Wait now, human! Orgrimmar be a fortress. My people, we ain't gonna crack dat nut on our own. How long we gonna last out here? Days? Weeks? Vol'jin can't say.

You keep da supplies commin', an' I promise, more Kor'kron gonna die. Before ya troops even land! The blood bein' spilt ain't even ya own! Surely dat be worth a few crates of meat?
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
It's simple. Alliance PC's don't like Vol'jin or the rebels. He and the other rebels have been killing Alliance constantly, stealing their territory, raising them as zombies, and reaping the benefits of doing so. We aren't interested in playing nice with him, so not being forced to play nice is a wonderful option to have.

It's not like you have to click the additional dialogue.

By constantly killing Alliance constantly, I assume you mean that one time he was forced to do so and it caused him to start a rebellion, by stealing their territory or raising them as zombies, I imagine you realize the Darkspear have never done that.

There was little reason the Alliance PC would have had to act like a jerk to Vol'jin's face when they were the one initiating diplomatic relations, but they did, and Vol'jin sassed back. People weren't satisfied with that so Blizzard made Vol'jin grovel in an attempt to placate the Alliance posters who'd been making a fuss.

I get that people would be happy to effectively force a faction leader to grovel for their help, but I think it's an odd precedent to set in terms of player characters' relationship with faction leaders, much less those of the opposite faction.
Edited by Kellick on 4/18/2013 6:41 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10470
Blizz caved here in the worst possible way and just threw some meaningless red meat at the alliance players without really addressing the fundamental issues. It's no different than this silly "Hordebreaker" business.


Given how much we were starting to feel like kicked puppies, I think even if yes, it's just a dialog frill and not something huge and important that changes the "fundamental issues", a little red meat is EXACTLY what we need.
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They didn't get anything more out of him than they would have had they not acts like asses.

They just got to act like asses with impunity.

Which I guess is something?


We gained nothing but pettiness.
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90 Human Warlock
0
The original ally question is not insulting. It simply asks the obvious question directly. If someone thinks that "Why should we help you? What if we kept the Barrens supplies for ourselves?" is insulting, I would be interested to see what they think a non-insulting way to ask the same question is. (Without begging or being obsequious.)
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I know I'm going to come off as a typical "god, Alliance is never happy" poster here....

But I don't like it. It's to far. The Alliance sassing back is fine, but I think something from Voljin along the lines of

"Ya mon, ye could be doin dat. But den dat leaves da two o us in da same place weu is now. So why dont we set aside da hatreds for now and work ta take out da orc who be bringing about so much trouble wit da least bleedin from da two o us so afta we can be bashin eacudders heads in if we so choose"

My Troll accent is horrible.


Ferlion, your a bro, but this...

I think you have really been under the spell of the horde too long.

So after Vol'jin sasses us about sending our dead to Sylvannas, and we counteract, he shouldn't then try to be the voice of reason, not after dropping that bridge burning and disturbingly fleshed out outcome.

It just doesn't sit right.
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55 Draenei Death Knight
470
04/18/2013 06:14 PMPosted by Kellick
Seizing on Vol'jin's weakness to squeeze things out of him isn't lowsy diplomacy, it's excellent diplomacy.

They didn't get anything more out of him than they would have had they not acts like asses.

They just got to act like asses with impunity.

Which I guess is something?

I don't often talk to Faction Leaders, but when I do I question their value, spit in their face, and then make them beg me to stay.

That's the precedent which has me perplexed. Flummoxed, even.


Acting like asses is exactly what the Alliance hero should be doing to voljin. Up until that point he have been their enemy. There should be some repercussion, some bitterness left from the Cata war and the Mop conflict.

However the initial one had us go "Oh everything HONKY DORY! Where can I help you with?" That was not natural. The second one had him talking down to us after we go "You know what after you killing and fighting us all this time why the hell should we help you?" To which he threaten us with slavery and undead. That even make less sense since we can't talk back and we just had to go "Oh yeah sure! You're right! Your the mature one you are absolutely right!"

Now we pretty much get to call his bluff and say "We'll I guess you got it handled here after all" now with him showing some humility I the PC alliance hero would be willing to set aside the past wrongs for now and assit the trolls.

Or as Voljin said earlier "Hmmm, ya earn me trust"

We're not diplomats, we are not pen pushers. We were front line soldiers that the Horde know in combat and suddenly been pulled away and asked to assit the Horde. There SHOULD be some resentment there. now we got it.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
Ferlion, your a bro, but this...

I think you have really been under the spell of the horde too long.

So after Vol'jin sasses us about sending our dead to Sylvannas, and we counteract, he shouldn't then try to be the voice of reason, not after dropping that bridge burning and disturbingly fleshed out outcome.

It just doesn't sit right.

And again, Vol'jin's comment is a sarcastic reply to the Alliance player character acting like an !@#.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9045
04/18/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Kite
I'm laughing. He's practically begging.


04/18/2013 05:58 PMPosted by Kite
And now we get to be even bigger asses, it's pretty great.


04/18/2013 06:27 PMPosted by Kite
And being an !@# is fun.


You don't really have the right to be condescending to us and call out our obnoxious complaints when you make immature antagonistic posts like these.
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2 Undead Warrior
0
He didn't rebel because he felt guilty at killing Alliance.

In fact, he was the one who tried to pump Baine up to attack Northwatch.

Either way, it's nice to see him squirm. I'm satisfied.
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90 Tauren Shaman
7365


Yes... I actually do.

Seeing how the complaint about this was completely trivial to begin with. Especially since the Alliance PCs only get that response if they deliberately be a jerk to Vol'jin. And many of the complainers here were being rather obnoxious and condescending about it all. In a way, it's essentially the Ji Firepaw fiasco again.

And if they all had been less cynical and more civil about this, I would definitely be in the wrong here.


You sunk to their level and personally insulted their intelligence by likening them to children. You have no high ground and are no better.


Well, excuse me, princess. But I honestly couldn't care less whether I'm stooping to their level or not. And calling them "babies" is quite tame in comparison to some of the flames I've read across the 'net. Also, the /ignore button is there, if they truly have a problem with what I said, they can just use that.

Frankly, if they can't be mature and respectful to others, why should I give them either in kind? Constantly trying to be nice when these same people have shown time and again that they are clearly undeserving of it is just futile and naive. Which is quite ironic since they're in a similar position about the Horde's constant hostility. >_>

. . . In any case, this is a moot argument. I will speak no more of this.
Edited by Zyliros on 4/18/2013 6:49 PM PDT
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90 Troll Hunter
13170
All this proves is that the Alliance cynics around here are petty !@#$%^-s.

You've only proven that you don't really want your own 'story,' or 'development,' all you want is subjugation and destruction.

No better than Garrosh. Pathetic.
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
04/18/2013 06:46 PMPosted by Quirnheim
He didn't rebel because he felt guilty at killing Alliance.

You're right.

He planned to rebel before he killed even a single soldier because he'd be forced to do kill them.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9145
But he still IS the voice of reason, and I'm sorry, but he can't look weak. To the Alliance OR to the Horde, otherwise the Orcs are going to treat him the same way they did Thrall. He's going to be under the same influence as Thrall was.

He's gotta stay strong, but logical, in order for the Horde to heed him after the siege.

You show strengh up front, so after, if you show weakness it can be played off as acknowledging thay they were helped. Now, Voljin is in a position where after the war, if he gives in to the Alliance, coupled with this showing, where the rest of the Horde is going to look at him as weak.

And again, Vol'jin's comment is a sarcastic reply to the Alliance player character acting like an !@#.


Well, I still don't disagree with that Alliance question. Remember, we heroes are still just rank and file. We don't have global information. Voljin is still a Horde leader who attacked Theramore.

We, the players, understand that he has rebeled and why. Our characters? not so much.
Edited by Ferlion on 4/18/2013 6:52 PM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
By constantly killing Alliance constantly, I assume you mean that one time he was forced to do so and it caused him to start a rebellion, by stealing their territory or raising them as zombies, I imagine you realize the Darkspear have never done that.


And I imagine that you realize that the rebels comprise more than Darkspear. Besides, of the people Garrosh was bullying Vol'jin was the one who had the least problem killing Alliance.

There was little reason the Alliance PC would have had to act like a jerk to Vol'jin's face when they were the one initiating diplomatic relations


There is considering as soon as the Alliance approaches they're tied up, called "filth that washed up from Theramore," threatened with death even by the person they saved earlier, and then brought to Vol'jin.

Somehow I doubt they'll still be in a diplomatic mood after that.
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90 Undead Warlock
6505
Next 5.3 build: Sha of Pride possesses player for instigating argument
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
He rebelled because he doesn't like Garrosh.

And he doesn't like Garrosh because of his warmongering. End result is the same.

You show strengh up front, so after, if you show weakness it can be played off as acknowledging thay they were helped. Now, Voljin is in a position where after the war, if he gives in to the Alliance, coupled with this showing, where the rest of the Horde is going to look at him as weak.

With any luck, this bizarre move will make more sense with the events of Vol'jin: Shadows of the Horde (Which will apparently involve references to the fact Trolls are covered in fur).
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73 Worgen Rogue
5745
04/18/2013 06:46 PMPosted by Veloran
I'm laughing. He's practically begging.


And now we get to be even bigger asses, it's pretty great.


And being an !@# is fun.


You don't really have the right to be condescending to us and call out our obnoxious complaints when you make immature antagonistic posts like these.


Being an ingame !@# to fictional characters is fun. Not to real life people like I was implying by my last comment.
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