You can tank or heal in a scenario.

92 Blood Elf Paladin
10925
Ghostcrawler recently said on Twitter: "You can tank or heal in a scenario. It's just not required."

Well obviously it's true that you CAN tank or heal a scenario. You could just stand around twiddling your thumbs in a scenario too. Most people play a support role because they want to be useful, not because they want to be carried or useless.

Tanking and healing is either required or it's useless. That's the game design. A tank or a healer in a scenario is just going to slow things down. It does not feel fun to me to "heal" a scenario.

This increased importance on areas of the game where healers and tanks are "optional" worries me. Especially because damage dealers get tons of tools (cc/self-heals/shields) so they don't need tanks/healers but healers and tanks don't get any significant increase in damage on their own.

They should start putting a warning label on the specialization screen. Damage dealers get to excel at every area of the game they take part in. Tanks and Healers-- not so much.

Source: https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/316241506522501121
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90 Gnome Mage
6990
Blizzard gears their game toward damage dealers because there are more of them, via scenarios, dailies, rep grinding. As a result, the incentive to play a healer (as tanks can still DPS) is even less, adding further to the queue time for everyone. Though I understand these things help give DPS things to do, it just adds more things that healers have difficulty doing.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
This thread is sil--

*sees thread was started by a paladin*

Oh, well, that makes some sense, then.

Please, OP, keep in mind dungeon queues are the realm of tanks and healers, and where we can properly be tanks and healers. Also, why not just be a spellcaster, using Holy Shock and Denounce, and glyphing both of those? You can actually rack up some pretty nice numbers.
Edited by Fistlobster on 4/7/2013 4:30 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
04/07/2013 04:29 PMPosted by Fistlobster
Please, OP, keep in mind dungeon queues are the realm of tanks and healers, and where we can properly be tanks and healers.

That's perfectly fine. Can we please have some new dungeon content that provides relevant rewards then?

Really, now.

"What's the best thing to do to improve my max-level character?"
"Try Z."
"I'm locked out of Z for the week. What can I do to continue to improve my character?"
"Try X."
"My spec isn't useful for X."
"That's because X isn't for you. Try Y."
"I've already done all of Y and have everything I need from it. Can I please have some new content?"
"We made lots of new content already. Try Z."
"But I already told you I'm locked out of Z."
"Try X, then."
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH!!!"
Edited by Kaels on 4/7/2013 4:43 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
Please, OP, keep in mind dungeon queues are the realm of tanks and healers, and where we can properly be tanks and healers.

That's perfectly fine. Can we please have some new dungeon content that provides relevant rewards then?

Really, now.

"My spec isn't useful for X."
"That's because X isn't for you. Try Y."
"I've already done all of Y and have everything I need from it. Can I please have some new content?"
"We made lots of new content already. Try X."
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH!!!"

So, what, just ignore the second half of my post? Priests get by with Holy Fire/PW:Solace, Smite, and Penance/Holy Word: Chastise, and monks do just fine with Jab and Tiger Palm/BoK (granted, they hit like trucks). Glyphing Holy Shock, Denounce, and Harsh Words will put out relevent numbers for scenarios and will eliminate the need to switch specs.
Edited by Fistlobster on 4/7/2013 4:45 PM PDT
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04/07/2013 04:39 PMPosted by Kaels
Please, OP, keep in mind dungeon queues are the realm of tanks and healers, and where we can properly be tanks and healers.

That's perfectly fine. Can we please have some new dungeon content that provides relevant rewards then?

Really, now.

"What's the best thing to do to improve my max-level character?"
"Try Z."
"I'm locked out of Z for the week. What can I do to continue to improve my character?"
"Try X."
"My spec isn't useful for X."
"That's because X isn't for you. Try Y."
"I've already done all of Y and have everything I need from it. Can I please have some new content?"
"We made lots of new content already. Try Z."
"But I already told you I'm locked out of Z."
"Try X, then."
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH!!!"


How would having a healer/tank necessary in scenarios change this at all? You can't get locked out of dungeons. What is it you would get from a scenario that you would not get from a dungeon?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
04/07/2013 04:43 PMPosted by Fistlobster
So, what, just ignore the second half of my post? Priests get by with Holy Fire/PW:Solace, Smite, and Penance/Holy Word: Chastise, and monks do just fine with Jab and Tiger Palm/BoK (granted, they hit like trucks).

It's mainly my paladin that drives me crazy. My priest is MS Shadow, it's not an issue (I just hate dailies and scenarios period, but I understand that's entirely my personal issue and not a valid complaint - if I really want to do them, I'll go do them.)

Have you actually tried trying to play a paladin as a caster, though? It is the most mindnumbingly awful thing I have ever experienced in my entire gaming life. It's worse than leveling this priest 1-80 as Holy by wanding things to death. Which I did. I'd do it all over again before I'd try to kill something as a holy paladin.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
How would having a healer/tank necessary in scenarios change this at all? You can't get locked out of dungeons. What is it you would get from a scenario that you would not get from a dungeon?

At least it would be something new to do for Valor. I assume the heroic scenarios will also probably reward something besides Valor.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8685
It's really just Healers that slow down Scenarios. Any Tank specced class actually speeds things up I've found since they can draw all the fire onto themselves and live while putting out respectable multi target DPS. Same thing hold for Challenge Modes and solo content.

Blizzard has been moving away from the classic MMO trinity for a while now for one reason or another. In days of yore when Tanks and DPS didn't have all the self healing they have now a healer was always a welcome sight.

I don't see them reverting things any time soon so I found its best to adapt. I know it's not the answer most of you want to hear but running a Tank or DPS off spec is more viable now than ever and will be even easier to gear up in 5.3. I actually find it refreshing to stop staring at Grid for an hour or two but that's just me.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
04/07/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Kaels
So, what, just ignore the second half of my post? Priests get by with Holy Fire/PW:Solace, Smite, and Penance/Holy Word: Chastise, and monks do just fine with Jab and Tiger Palm/BoK (granted, they hit like trucks).

It's mainly my paladin that drives me crazy. My priest is MS Shadow, it's not an issue (I just hate dailies and scenarios period, but I understand that's entirely my personal issue and not a valid complaint - if I really want to do them, I'll go do them.)

Have you actually tried trying to play a paladin as a caster, though? It is the most mindnumbingly awful thing I have ever experienced in my entire gaming life. It's worse than leveling this priest 1-80 as Holy by wanding things to death. Which I did. I'd do it all over again before I'd try to kill something as a holy paladin.

Paladin spellcasting leaves a lot to be desired, yes, but it's not impossible. It's definitely more than enough to deal with a scenario. On top of that, even if you didn't want to spellcast, is that really that big of a deal? It's free valor and gold, all you need to do is follow them along and cast a heal or two if they get low. Worst case scenario, you get 3 paladin healers but really, when will that happen?
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At least it would be something new to do for Valor. I assume the heroic scenarios will also probably reward something besides Valor.


That's probably fair, though I have no idea what the Heroic ones will have. Also, and I am not meaning this to be facetious at all, they are honest questions.... Have other people felt like they have slowed down a scenario by entering as a healer? Have people commented negatively about you being a healer? I have never done a scenario as anything *but* a healer (not just on the priest, I also have Shaman, Druid, Paladin, and Monk at 90) and I have never had a negative experience while doing so. Sometimes people notice and say "Oh cool we go faster" or sometimes I will comment "I am actually a healer so you can probably grab as much stuff at a time as you want to".
Edited by Morenn on 4/7/2013 4:55 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
On top of that, even if you didn't want to spellcast, is that really that big of a deal? It's free valor and gold, all you need to do is follow them along and cast a heal or two if they get low. Worst case scenario, you get 3 paladin healers but really, when will that happen?

I don't want free gear. I don't want to be carried. If I wanted to be carried, I would have taken one of the highly numerous offers from friends/guildies to let me afk autofollow them while they do my dailies for me. Or, in one case, log on my account and do them for me.

I don't want that. I don't want gear effectively mailed to me. I want to be able to earn it on the same terms as DPS earn it, in a reasonably fun way that is relevant to the spec/role that I'm gearing. I want to play the game and have fun playing and obtain relevant rewards in the process. Same as I was able to do in Wrath and Cata.

I have never wanted a reward that I couldn't be proud of. That's why I don't go achievement hunting for trivial achis, or farm mounts/transmog gear drops from outdated content, or any of that stuff. It's why I don't like LFR gear and try to avoid getting achievements/killing bosses on LFR that I haven't done on normal. I want to legitimately participate and earn what I have, not be carried by people who feel sorry for my pathetic useless self.
Edited by Kaels on 4/7/2013 5:04 PM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
12420
I had a group with 2 resto shamans when I was on my fresh 90 resto/ele shaman. Wasn't fun. They couldn't even defend the brew.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Ghostcrawler recently said on Twitter: "You can tank or heal in a scenario. It's just not required."

Well obviously it's true that you CAN tank or heal a scenario. You could just stand around twiddling your thumbs in a scenario too. Most people play a support role because they want to be useful, not because they want to be carried or useless.

Tanking and healing is either required or it's useless. That's the game design. A tank or a healer in a scenario is just going to slow things down. It does not feel fun to me to "heal" a scenario.

This increased importance on areas of the game where healers and tanks are "optional" worries me. Especially because damage dealers get tons of tools (cc/self-heals/shields) so they don't need tanks/healers but healers and tanks don't get any significant increase in damage on their own.

They should start putting a warning label on the specialization screen. Damage dealers get to excel at every area of the game they take part in. Tanks and Healers-- not so much.

Source: https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/316241506522501121


It's the tradeoff we get for having instance LFR/LFD queues.
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92 Blood Elf Paladin
10925
Paladin spellcasting leaves a lot to be desired, yes, but it's not impossible. It's definitely more than enough to deal with a scenario. On top of that, even if you didn't want to spellcast, is that really that big of a deal? It's free valor and gold, all you need to do is follow them along and cast a heal or two if they get low. Worst case scenario, you get 3 paladin healers but really, when will that happen


I do glyph holy shock and denounce. I even spent over an hour on target dummies trying to find a rotation that would go over 30k dps. It is a big deal. I don't want to feel like I'm not contributing. It isn't fun to feel like dead weight.

That's probably fair, though I have no idea what the Heroic ones will have. Also, and I am not meaning this to be facetious at all, they are honest questions.... Have other people felt like they have slowed down a scenario by entering as a healer? Have people commented negatively about you being a healer? I have never done a scenario as anything *but* a healer (not just on the priest, I also have Shaman, Druid, Paladin, and Monk at 90) and I have never had a negative experience while doing so. Sometimes people notice and say "Oh cool we go faster" or sometimes I will comment "I am actually a healer so you can probably grab as much stuff at a time as you want to".


There have been a few times when I have been glad to be in a healing spec in a scenario, where I actually felt like I needed to be there. However, most of the time I definitely feel like I'm slowing things down with my low dps and lack of aoe damage. Only once has anyone said anything negative to me, but then most people just don't say anything at all.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
I ended up in a scenario with 3 healers once. Was slow going.
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100 Human Priest
13840
Ghostcrawler recently said on Twitter: "You can tank or heal in a scenario. It's just not required."

Well obviously it's true that you CAN tank or heal a scenario. You could just stand around twiddling your thumbs in a scenario too. Most people play a support role because they want to be useful, not because they want to be carried or useless.

Tanking and healing is either required or it's useless. That's the game design. A tank or a healer in a scenario is just going to slow things down. It does not feel fun to me to "heal" a scenario.

This increased importance on areas of the game where healers and tanks are "optional" worries me. Especially because damage dealers get tons of tools (cc/self-heals/shields) so they don't need tanks/healers but healers and tanks don't get any significant increase in damage on their own.

They should start putting a warning label on the specialization screen. Damage dealers get to excel at every area of the game they take part in. Tanks and Healers-- not so much.

Source: https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/316241506522501121
Yep. Its how I feel. I either do or LFR or my spec is useless.

I've been logging on less and less lately because I miss playing my role. To make matters worse with wow's current model of inflexibility, I go to school full time and work full time. When I have the time to run 7 dungeons on the weekend I am still not allowed to because they removed the 7 heroics per week rule. Seeing 600 rep per week from heroics has me so disgusted I just stopped bothering.

I am really pondering canceling my sub lately. And the truth is I don't want to. I love my priest, I love healing. But I have so little to do and even less flexibility as to when I can do it because of this requirement that everything get done within 24 hours. I can't set my own schedule like I used to. Disappointed. : /
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90 Draenei Shaman
11165
Blizzard gears their game toward damage dealers because there are more of them, via scenarios, dailies, rep grinding. As a result, the incentive to play a healer (as tanks can still DPS) is even less, adding further to the queue time for everyone. Though I understand these things help give DPS things to do, it just adds more things that healers have difficulty doing.


It is kind of hard at times that I can't do something in the spec I want. At least with my Priest she can do decent damage in either Disc or Holy so I can have both of these specs and still do scenarios if I wish. Dailies does take a little bit longer but at least I stay alive if I end up with more then I planned on killing.

My Pally was Holy/Prot for a good portion of Cata. I did end up tanking the Theramore Scenario a few times. It was interesting since I'd end up in groups where they'd tell me this didn't need a tank. I'd explain the problem to them (my specs) and they'd just shrug. Then as we did the instance it turns out that if I hadn't been there to take stuff they would have died several times and at the end they said "Hey we're really glad you came as a tank".

But I'd really like it if I could do more content in the spec I really love to play. It really is possible to play a class and only like playing one spec. It feels frustrating since for a long time I saw tons of DPS posting that they hated waiting for healers and tanks to be able to do stuff and wanted things geared towards them. Hence we got scenarios in which there is really no place for a tank or healer if your group does it right. And if you dare show up as a tank or a healer (especially if you just hit max level and that's the only spec you have gear for at that moment) prepare to be bombarded with complaints and other lovely words.

So if tanks and healers complain about having to depend on DPS or consistently have DPS show up and hinder the group either with terrible damage or being a general nuisance does that mean we'll get content geared only towards us?
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100 Human Monk
11910
Honestly, I think that scenarios are such a great and amazing new tool that is just being used in such a shortsided way right now that it's not even funny. I think that they are really starting to tap into their potential with the new isle of thunder 1-time scenarios.

With that said, the current design of repeatable scenarios is horribly bland. They don't really do anything interesting and the fact that someone even mentioned the idea of "heroic" scenario screams just how poorly they understand the idea of a scenario.

Regarding healers in scenarios, I think the real answer is that healers should have a way to put out significant levels of DPS. Let's take a look at something that has sort of come about recently and that's the idea of a "support" class (specifically looking at monks here and priests to a certain extent).

These classes that are intended to be half healer/half dps classes are actually not half at all but full healers and maybe half dps. For monks and disc priests, this means that simply switching around what abilities you are using on the fly can swap you from doing dps to going full healing. On top of that, the dps they are putting out is non-trivial. It may not be on the same level as a full dps, but it's nothing to shake a stick at either. I think that this is the goal that should be applied to all healing classes.

Let's take a look at the problems with paladins in this role, they honestly have the tools to do non-trivial dps in the same way that a monk or priest do, but the biggest hurdle is the hard choice that requires changing glyphs to even have a chance of doing this. The glyphs end up weakening your healing abilities just to make them strong enough to provide any DPS and that prevents any on the fly switching. Honestly, I would make the battle healer glyph baseline and integrate it into your beacon of light or something. I would increase the damage of judgement, holy shock and word of glory. Additionally, I would give them some sort of multitarget ability. Doesn't "need" to be aoe, but at least a stronger multitarget ability.
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