Resto Druids, Need to be thought out more.

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100 Troll Druid
12460
I feel as if people are reading my list and then ignoring my reasoning, and assuming I think druids are the worst healers ever.
100 Troll Druid
12460
Does anyone understand how the Force of nature will be used in 5.3? That im curious to see.
90 Night Elf Druid
11915
So I just looked up some of your kills on WoL.

Uptimes:

Ji-Kun
Harmony 77.9%
Lifebloom 40.7%
Innervate never used
Healing Done 7.29% below top healer

Durumu
Harmony 61.6%
Lifebloom 36%
Innervate used 2 times
Healing Done 1.16% below top healer

Primordious
Harmony 86.3%
Lifebloom 65.9%
Innervate used 1 time
Healing Done 2.75% below top healer

Dark Animus
Harmony 85%
Lifebloom 53.1%
Innervate used 1 time
Healing Done 3.87% below top healer

Iron Qon
Harmony 82.1%
Lifebloom 2.7%
Innervate used 3 times
Healing Done 3.67% below top healer

Twin Consorts
Harmony 97.8%
Lifebloom 4.6%
Innervate used 1 time
Healing Done 2.13% below top healer

Comparing to other classes matters in some ways, but if you're not fully using the toolkit you can't make a proper comparison. You need to improve your Harmony and Lifebloom uptimes and use Innervate more often. Those uptimes need to be as close to 100% as possible. Even if your tank isn't taking significant damage you keep LB on them for OOC. You probably aren't needing to use Innervate often because your Spirit is too high at the cost of throughput.

Even with your poor uptimes you're still holding your own with your healing team. If you improved your uptimes you'd easily be the top healer on several fights, which makes since because this tier has a lot of mobility. Looking at your raid logs only, which wouldn't be an appropriate sample size to make any class balance conclusions, one could assume that resto druids are overpowered since when played poorly they are well within the deviation of 5% that Blizzard attempts to maintain for class balance.

I don't understand why you feel druids need that much attention when the data from your raid experience shows that you are a significant member of your healing team and poor spell usage can easily account for why you don't top the healing meter for at least some fights.

04/07/2013 09:54 PMPosted by George
And mitmem you're being quiet crucial for not have raided regular since Cata.

At the moment real life issues don't allow me to reliability commit to a raid schedule and as a result I don't have a regular raid group. I'd rather not pug into Normals and Heroics with strangers so I haven't done much outside of LFR and questing during this Xpac, but I still play when I can and kept up to date about druids which is the class I prefer to play. If I am able to once again get back into a raid schedule there are many people I know that will gladly find a place for me because they've raided with me in the past. If a friend is going to go out on a limb to get me into their raid group then the least I can do is not embarrass them by not understanding how to play my class effectively.

There's also no need to attempt to denigrate me because I haven't been raiding seriously. I was providing you with a thoroughly considered constructive criticism. If you take that as an insult then that is your assumption and you should probably avoid the forums if you easily assume someone is insulting you. If I had wrote something to the effect of "L2P noob", then you'd be right in believing I was being a jerk. I wrote nothing in the realm of that type of comment.

So on that, I'm done with this thread. I won't waste time on someone that can't take reasonable criticism.
Edited by Mitimem on 4/7/2013 10:59 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
10625
The reason people aren't aren't responding to you in the way you want is that there are some glaring issues in the way you are playing your druid. We have the exact same equipped ilvl. Yet I have 4500 more spellpower and 7.5% more mastery. You have the only useless level 90 talent and are running glyph of rejuvenation and no glyph of regrowth - which is pretty much mandatory at the level of crit we are at currently. I also fail to see the need for as much spirit as you have, proper innervate usage and spell selection shouldn't require that much. About 4000 of this (maybe more) could be turned into throughput stats.

Sorry to be blunt but other people have been saying this and it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

I raid in 10 man, the other two healers are a pally and a disc priest - so I understand where your complaint about the absorb healers is coming from but I disagree that it is a problem. If you really can't get any heals out, drop a healer. If its just a period of low damage spec into hotw and wrath spam. If your hots hit harder - i.e. with more spellpower and mastery behind them then while they are ticking you are putting out more healing.

You make some good points that would help overall quality of life for resto druids, but we are by no means in a place where we need to be crying out for buffs.
100 Troll Druid
12460
So I just looked up some of your kills on WoL.

Uptimes:

Ji-Kun
Harmony 77.9%
Lifebloom 40.7%
Innervate never used
Healing Done 7.29% below top healer

Durumu
Harmony 61.6%
Lifebloom 36%
Innervate used 2 times
Healing Done 1.16% below top healer

Primordious
Harmony 86.3%
Lifebloom 65.9%
Innervate used 1 time
Healing Done 2.75% below top healer

Dark Animus
Harmony 85%
Lifebloom 53.1%
Innervate used 1 time
Healing Done 3.87% below top healer

Iron Qon
Harmony 82.1%
Lifebloom 2.7%
Innervate used 3 times
Healing Done 3.67% below top healer

Twin Consorts
Harmony 97.8%
Lifebloom 4.6%
Innervate used 1 time
Healing Done 2.13% below top healer

Comparing to other classes matters in some ways, but if you're not fully using the toolkit you can't make a proper comparison. You need to improve your Harmony and Lifebloom uptimes and use Innervate more often. Those uptimes need to be as close to 100% as possible. Even if your tank isn't taking significant damage you keep LB on them for OOC. You probably aren't needing to use Innervate often because your Spirit is too high at the cost of throughput.

Even with your poor uptimes you're still holding your own with your healing team. If you improved your uptimes you'd easily be the top healer on several fights, which makes since because this tier has a lot of mobility. Looking at your raid logs only, which wouldn't be an appropriate sample size to make any class balance conclusions, one could assume that resto druids are overpowered since when played poorly they are well within the deviation of 5% that Blizzard attempts to maintain for class balance.

I don't understand why you feel druids need that much attention when the data from your raid experience shows that you are a significant member of your healing team and poor spell usage can easily account for why you don't top the healing meter for at least some fights.


This was the week I attempted to go with the haste and spirit over mastery, and my heals seemed significantly worse, (and my uptimes must have been worse) but aside from my logs. I mainly made this post regarding

5) T14 is currently being chosen over t15 for the 4 set bonus.
6) Mushrooms are bulky and not efficient.
7) Efflorescence is too small.

Especially 6. I would just really like them to ditch mushrooms and think of a different method for a charging spell. Maybe even a charged Wild growth that healed instantly and not just as a HoT, the game is changing so much, I just dont want them to lose sense of what makes a druid a druid.

And thanks for analyzing my logs, its actually very helpful.
Edited by George on 4/7/2013 10:58 PM PDT
100 Troll Druid
12460
Very sorry mitimem,
When i said you were being crucial because you didn't have recent experience, I wasn't denying what you were saying. It's annoying when 5-6 people tell you your stats are wrong, when you know. I stated I was theory crafting after the first person stated my glyphs,talents, and stats were wrong. You also seemed to manipulate what I was saying, I know druids are mobile and I know ToL is a very powerful tool, I just dont think it should be a talent because it should be set in stone a rdruid should have ToL.

I really do appreciate the insight and log checks, I am taking what people are saying seriously.

Afterall I just like thinking of spell ideas and how they could change things up.
90 Night Elf Druid
11915
When i said you were being crucial because you didn't have recent experience, I wasn't denying what you were saying. It's annoying when 5-6 people tell you your stats are wrong, when you know. I stated I was theory crafting after the first person stated my glyphs,talents, and stats were wrong. You also seemed to manipulate what I was saying, I know druids are mobile and I know ToL is a very powerful tool, I just dont think it should be a talent because it should be set in stone a rdruid should have ToL.

Look at the post timestamps.

When I decided I was going to post in this thread there were 4 posts. I didn't simply type out something fast and hit post. I carefully read what you wrote and the response from Practical. I then wrote down my initial thoughts. I then went on wowhead to re-read the tooltips for the spells and talents that are being discussed. Even though I do make a point of reading patch notes, sometimes I may forget about a change or there's a hotfix. I then checked your setup for underlying causes for why you've come to your conclusions. I then amended what I wrote and finally hit Submit. We seem to have different approaches to forum commenting. You like to rapid fire off comments. I take my time and put all my thoughts into a single post.

Everything I wrote in my initial post was in response to the information available at the time. At that point I had read no comments from others about your stats or your reply about screwing around with stats. And yes you said druids are mobile and offered suggestions to further enhance our mobility, but your header for that line of discussion is "We have no niche that makes us stand out from other healers". I believe our mobility is a niche that makes us stand out and I was specifically disagreeing with you that we lack a niche.

While my initial post my have a time stamp of 9:37pm. I was writing in response to information last updated at 7:39pm. One thing you need to understand about forums is that posts appear in the order they were submitted, not necessarily in the order they were written.

I still stand by everything I wrote. I see no reason for the buffs you're calling for. If you improve your stat weights and playstyle and every other factor remained constant you'd be embarrassing the other healers in your raid. Druids really are in a good place at the moment.

Mushrooms are awkward, but it is a situational spell, not rotational. We aren't dependent upon them to be competitive. You can certainly get some serious healing out of them with assistance from your raid group. Learn the best spots to place your mushrooms and then use a voice chat application to tell your raid that you're about to cast Bloom. A good player will get within range of the heal. It's not the easiest spell to setup, but they are damn powerful when the heal lands. If the players you're with won't take advantage of the spell then they honestly don't deserve the heal.

Smart heals sniping our HoTs is an issue, but it's easily addressed. First and foremost you need to get on board with the idea of being a part of the healing team. Classes have their various strengths and weaknesses. You and your team need to learn to take advantage of each others strengths. The other healers in your group shouldn't back off using smart heals that snipe your HoTs. They should use those abilities as much as possible when appropriate and YOU need to modify your casting to avoid using Rejuvenation or unglyphed Regrowth when it will likely get significantly sniped. That doesn't mean using Nourish to raid heal low damage either. It may be hard to grasp, but as a druid you need to learn to ignore damage that doesn't exceed 80k unless the player has aggro or you expect them to take more damage soon. If you have Wild Growth available and enough players are injured, then go ahead and use it. Until the situation changes you stand around, refresh Harmony and Lifebloom and conserve mana. Other classes smart heals, ground targeted heals and your Wild Growth will cover that minor damage. Save your mana for burst healing with Regrowth and blanket casting Rejuvenation. You don't have to be casting at all times. The net result is you need less Spirit and can convert those points to throughput stats to improve your burst healing.
100 Troll Druid
12110
04/07/2013 11:12 PMPosted by George
I stated I was theory crafting after the first person stated my glyphs,talents, and stats were wrong.


And I meant no disrespect towards you George when saying that but you must understand that our community is vibrant and full of good theory-crafters. The fact that 5.2 has been out for a little while means that they too have though of the very things you are trying out myself included.

But even before 5.2 everyone knows that going for such high haste levels (6652) just isn't worth the mastery loss. Yes one might be able to sacrifice spirit over mastery and hit the SotF point of 5437 much easier but even then it's best with the 4pc t14 heroic to be optimal.

But I've never seen anyone ever try Dream of Cenarius because from a healing point of view it just doesn't come close to HotW or NV and both provide more versatility whether that be added dps or healing.

The same can be almost be said for the rejuvenation glyph. We just don't find ourselves spamming Nourish at least in a 10m environment although to be fair this isn't in the same category as added haste of not choosing HotW or NV.

So my initial comment was more of a surprise for a person who has completed 12/12 normal and who doesn't already know this. This doesn't mean I think less of you because like you've stated you're looking at ways to improve your output. But that information is in this thread you only have to act upon it.

So yes George WM are clunky and personally the 10% buff while appreciated doesn't really address our tool-kit issues. We lack a serious means of dealing with heavy aoe damage when WG is on CD where we simply revert back to filler spells like rejuv spam which is anything but efficient.

We are all very aware of the shortfalls concerning our class but we also know that we can work well with what is handed to us. Make the best of that George you can improve your mastery a great deal and make your heals much stronger. What else can you do? If you're an exceptional player you will shine regardless and on a personal note I don't mind not being number one only if my spells happen to be OP.
100 Orc Hunter
10955
I feel as if people are reading my list and then ignoring my reasoning, and assuming I think druids are the worst healers ever.


Druids have suffered from the battered wife syndrome for quite a while, especially resto Druids. It's near impossible to discuss these types of issues in the Druid forums because of the general attitude.

I believe you are bringing up very good points as to the current state of Druid healing. The over-healing issue has been a problem for quite some time. It was never this bad in the past, but absorbs have become so prominent the issue cannot be overlooked any longer. Unfortunately, this likely means we'll have to wait until 6.0 (and then at the level cap) before any fundamental changes to the Druid are applied.

Perhaps you could take this post to the healing forums. You're more likely to find objective opinions there. Also, make sure to get into the next WoW beta and discuss your idea on the next beta class forums.
90 Night Elf Druid
11915
04/08/2013 01:42 AMPosted by Moophious
The same can be almost be said for the rejuvenation glyph. We just don't find ourselves spamming Nourish at least in a 10m environment

To be fair you won't be spamming Nourish in any environment unless the tank is taking low to moderate damage and no one else has damage.

The real problem with the Rejuv glyph is that it's a contradiction. Nourish has two weaknesses. It casts slow and heals for very little. There needs to be at least a moderate amount of raid wide damage to have three Rejuvenations rolling. Even with a shorter cast time the weak heal from Nourish isn't suited for raid healing moderate damage. If the glyph reduced the cast time of Healing Touch then it'd be a good glyph and HT would have a use outside of Nature's Swiftness. Alas, that's not how it is.

Like you I'm completely baffled why the OP would be using this glyph. For PVE the Regrowth, Lifebloom and Wild Growth glyphs are obviously superior in all possible situations. There's absolutely no contest.
90 Tauren Druid
SSC
7995
I started playing a year before BC and played my druid and paladin starting in wrath.

What I found is I prefer resto druid for raiding over my holy paladin in all expansions. However holy paladin makes better pvp healers.

Resto is lacking in pvp yes, but not for pve. I absolutely hate healing in raids on my paladin as opposed to my resto druid.

Life bloom needs to be up 100%, even at only 1 stack. Clear casting is gained from it. Clear cast in my opinion should be used with regrowth. This should also keep harmony up 100%. SotF + WG is much better than ToL, and yes I hated the change from wotlk to cata removing tree form as a mechanic to the class. It was done because mages complained about how they couldn't sheep a resto druid in pvp situation.
Edited by Raëlian on 4/8/2013 9:17 AM PDT
90 Worgen Druid
12055
04/08/2013 09:14 AMPosted by Mitimem
To be fair you won't be spamming Nourish in any environment


Nourish? What's that? (I don't even have it on my bars anymore -_- )

In a 25 man raid environment I've found myself pretty useless with two disc priests and a holy pally (though one priest literally just spams smite the entire fight...), but last night on our 4 hour Durumu head smashing I think I found my niche. I was at least 7 million healing(take it about 30k hps, probably 10%-20% total throughput) above every other healer on practically every attempt. Got to love dat maze phase...

It's probably a lot different in a 25 man compared to 10 (especially with the healers that are in my group and their... como se dice "skill level"), but on the none farm fights (Jin, Horridon) fights where there is actual raid damage (Tortos Quake, Mag rampage, Durumu) I find myself almost always on top or fighting for that number one spot.
100 Troll Druid
12460
[quote="85683472381"]
Like you I'm completely baffled why the OP would be using this glyph. For PVE the Regrowth, Lifebloom and Wild Growth glyphs are obviously superior in all possible situations. There's absolutely no contest.


The reason I chose the glyph of rejuvenation was because I don't find glyph of regrowth as good as its made out to be. I like the regrowth hot, and it crits plenty enough without it. Directly after my Clearcasted Regrowth i like to use swiftmend if the target is in need of more heals. I think the only 2 set in stone glyphs atm are Glyph of Lifebloom and Glyph of Wild Growth.

The third could be Rejuv, stampeding roar, rebirth, blooming, etc. The third is ultimately a personal preference.
100 Troll Druid
12110
The reason I chose the glyph of rejuvenation was because I don't find glyph of regrowth as good as its made out to be. I like the regrowth hot, and it crits plenty enough without it. Directly after my Clearcasted Regrowth i like to use swiftmend if the target is in need of more heals. I think the only 2 set in stone glyphs atm are Glyph of Lifebloom and Glyph of Wild Growth.

The third could be Rejuv, stampeding roar, rebirth, blooming, etc. The third is ultimately a personal preference.


It's fine to not choose to use the rg growth glyph for whatever reasons but that doesn't mean using the rj one is better in and of itself. It's very true that we change rg out for roar but we don't to my knowledge use brez of late simply because it provides a 60% base so it went from mandatory to optional leaning more towards not needed. And blooming is never in the discussion George.
90 Worgen Druid
12415
04/08/2013 10:02 AMPosted by George
The reason I chose the glyph of rejuvenation was because I don't find glyph of regrowth as good as its made out to be.


thats a free CRIT heal of like 120k and then like a 30k living seed and i would get the valor trinket if i was you
90 Night Elf Druid
17270
I raid 25 mans and we're still not as good there. I agree with some of your points. I hated mushrooms even in it's current state. They're way too hit or miss on most fights due to movement.

Disc priest and Mist weaver monks can both damage and put out a high amount of healing, when they are able to do 60k-70k dps AND heal a high amount of hps more than druids, it makes you wonder why anyone would ever want a resto druid in their raid comp.

Pallys have high damage mitigation, and large amounts of blanketing.

As for shamans they have many Healing CD's, and an amazing mastery. Shaman's, are too lacking in healing meters on fights, and blizzard also gave them a 20% healing buff.

We continue to ignore the fact that just buffing a higher amount of healing will fix the games issues. It wont. It didn't work with the druids 10% and it surely wont with the shamans 20%.

I agree with this especially. The thing that bugs me is how ridiculous absorbs have become as well as smart heals. The amount of effective healing my HoTs have done are diminishing because of this. The raid seems to be immediately topped off while my HoTs get maybe 1-2 ticks in.

My guild tends to run more healers than necessary and i'm fairly undergeared compared to the rest of the healers so that may be why. I don't know how much of a difference gear makes for a druid healer now as I've healed undergeared in past tiers and have been fine. I've been tempted to gem for more throughput instead of spirit but I don't know how that fares in 25s since I haven't seen a druid doing so yet.

Personally, I would love to see something like Revitalize back.Where it scaled with spirit like a disc priest's Rapture. Clearcasting is amazing with ToL to save mana, but it requires you to spec for it. I run with SotF for most fights since I have problems figuring out when to use ToL in 25s because the raid is topped off so quickly.
100 Troll Druid
12460
Personally, I would love to see something like Revitalize back.Where it scaled with spirit like a disc priest's Rapture. Clearcasting is amazing with ToL to save mana, but it requires you to spec for it. I run with SotF for most fights since I have problems figuring out when to use ToL in 25s because the raid is topped off so quickly. [/quote]

This is one of my main points, a druid is supposed to have ToL. It's a healing CD, it's a mana CD and it just looks awesome. To have to sacrifice it for SoTF is sad. I say place a new incarnation spell for resto druids and put ToL back in the spell book.
90 Tauren Druid
11610
I'm just speaking from how I feel about resto druids. We are pretty strong raid healers if you spec into SoTF instead of incarnation. I find for most fights with the raid makeup that our raid uses (Disc Priest to focus mostly on tanks, Rsham and Rdruid) that yes I may not be on the #1 spot on the charts, I still have such a great time. The amount of burst raid heals that is possible with using the SoTF to swiftmend into wild growth and also pop mushrooms is insane. Rdruids are a very viable choice in a raid situation and a lot of groups I have been a part of have always liked having the Rdruid in there for the raid heals and the rolling HoTs on the tanks.

I also have tried playing other healing classes as well and druids just seem to be the most fun for me. Just seems a lot more versitile than other healers and that to me makes it worth while to stick with the Rduid I have played since BC.
90 Night Elf Druid
17270
04/08/2013 01:04 PMPosted by George
Personally, I would love to see something like Revitalize back.Where it scaled with spirit like a disc priest's Rapture. Clearcasting is amazing with ToL to save mana, but it requires you to spec for it. I run with SotF for most fights since I have problems figuring out when to use ToL in 25s because the raid is topped off so quickly.

Exactly. It's something we had way before the talent overhaul.
90 Night Elf Druid
11915
04/08/2013 01:04 PMPosted by George
Clearcasting is amazing with ToL to save mana, but it requires you to spec for it.

No. Omen is not dependent upon ToL to save mana. As long as you maintain a proper LB uptime you will have plenty of clearcasts. The amount of mana saved is significant all the time, not just for 30 seconds every 3 minutes.

I run with SotF for most fights since I have problems figuring out when to use ToL in 25s because the raid is topped off so quickly.

This is one of my main points, a druid is supposed to have ToL. It's a healing CD, it's a mana CD and it just looks awesome.

And that is one of the reasons Incarnation is not used by many. A lot of fights don't have a raid wide damage event that lines up well with that 3 minute cooldown. It'd have the same weakness as a baseline spell rather than a talent, so why would you want the change?

Don't confuse Incarnation with the old Tree Form. They are drastically different. All that we lost by having non-permanent Tree Form is protection from shapeshifting and increased armor, neither have a significant impact on PVE. The healing power increase that was part of Tree Form is now baked into resto caster form. During the same patch Regrowth was changed to have a much shorter HoT and Lifebloom was restricted to one target, but the new talent Incarnation gave us a short window to still blanket LB like we used to.

Most importantly, getting ToL as a baseline spell and getting a new Incarnation talent would be a buff. We don't need a buff. Right now resto druids have some QoL issues, but throughput and regen are good.
Edited by Mitimem on 4/8/2013 6:49 PM PDT
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