Help with 10m Tortos

90 Tauren Druid
5965
Here are the logs for our attempts last week: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hg5ks4yqnmhdtj4s/
The first few attempts we tried 2 tanks, 2 heals, 6 dps, but soon after switched to 1 tank, 3 heals, 6 dps with no better results. (Tank was taking too much damage obviously). Looking at the logs is the main problem that too many people are taking excessive rockfall damage?

Our current comp is:
Tanks:
Pally Tank
Monk Tank

Healers:
Druid
Disc Priest
(Optional Monk)

DPS:
Frost DK
S Priest
BM/Survival Hunter:
Monk (With Heals OS)
Destro/Afflic Lock
Ele Shaman

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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90 Human Paladin
12755
Never try 1 tanking unless you just completely out gear the fight, i believe we only 1 tank 1 fight in Tot atm and thats Dark ani because he is a complete joke. we still 3 heal tortos just because of the splash dmg can so ridiculous at times.
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90 Tauren Druid
5965
Ok. We 1 tanked Council with success so just decided to give it a shot.
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90 Draenei Shaman
15910
Yeah, solo tanking this encounter without over-gearing it is not a good idea. Judging from your logs, you are correct about the rockfall damage being too high which means you are already on the right path to fix it.

One of my raiders came up with the idea of having everyone stand on the left side of the room and then run as far to the other side as possible right after a quake stomp. This vastly alleviated damage taken by people from rockfall for the encounter. We still had some people not really doing it (a couple healers would stop to try and get heals off, or DPS would be more interested in following the turtles around or whatever) and you'd see them 2 million rockfall damage taken during the course of an attempt, where my own damage taken was perhaps a quarter of that. I had to yell at them to knock it off and just run away from the blue circles and we beat the stupid turtle two attempts later.

We task our ranged to sit on the turtles until they're all dead. We make melee chase turtles when there are no bats to kill, but allow them to cleave the bats when there are (if the bats are alive when a stomp comes, it can overwhelm their tank - have him prepared to use cooldowns for this, but you really want them dead before the stomp).

If DPS stays on top of the adds and kills them in a timely manner, and if everyone actually avoids rockfalls, the fight will become more manageable. Both groups I've run with and a few others I'm aware of have had some issues with bats destroying healers. So make sure your bat tank is really alert to when they spawn. You probably want a tank who can mitigate alot of their damage and has a high health pool, but you may just have to go with the one who has better AoE snap aggro.
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90 Goblin Shaman
9475
Just took quick look through your longest attempt at 3:16, your healers just dont seem to be putting out enough healing. especially your monk. I unfortunately dont know anything about monk healers as noone in our guild raids as one but a similar length pull had all of our healers doing more healing. One quick thing I noticed about your resto druid healing is swiftmend usage is a little low. the log I am comparing to is one of our attempts two weeks ago http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6wq8cry3pzolkacr/sum/healingDone/?s=13363&e=13577, this was a 3:34 second attempt so swiftmend usage for the two resto druids should be roughly the same. You used half the swiftmends in about the same amount of time.

The only healer I have much experiance with is a resto shaman so take this with a grain of salt. One other difference I noticed was your gemming seems a little odd, now I assume you want as much spirit as possible since thats what you keep reforging into and gemming for, and reforging out of crit, so why gem straight crit? socket bonus makes sense for you belt for example but id think a zen cut (mastery+spirit) would suit your needs better than straight crit gem.

These are our 10m logs http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6wq8cry3pzolkacr/, we didn't kill it this week but we did the next.

Now onto something that I know a little more about, your ele shaman is also not using Elemental blast nearly as often as he should. I understand there is alot of movement but only 3 casts of elemental blast over a 3 minute fight is not very good. Honestly what i'd recommend for that fight is to switch over to primal elemental because of the constant movement in the fight.

Overall this is not an easy fight, as you can see it took us around 30 attempts to down it so don't get discouraged even if it seems you aren't making a whole lot of progress.

As far as 2 or 1 tanking goes, that honestly doesnt seem like your issue. If you have tank deaths or the tank cant pick up bats in time then go to 2 tanking but if neither is an issue just stick with one.
Edited by Qyrix on 4/9/2013 9:46 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
15910
A 3 minute log isn't really much to go on, but you're wrong. Healing numbers are fine (other than the fact that the solo pally tank was doing ungodly amounts of self-healing). Their raid HPS is 25k higher than it was for my kill. This is not really an AoE healing fight and the healing requirements are really not very high (you just have to be able to deal with the tank spikes). If your healers are doing more than that, its probably because you're taking too much damage from rockfall.

You're also probably off base on the elemental shaman. 65% of his damage done was to cave bats and it's not ideal to use Elemental Blast while spamming chain lightning. It looks like most of his single target time was taken up with FS/LvB, as I only see 12 casts of lightning bolt on the log in question, which means he missed, at most, a few Elemental Blast casts. Rather, if your elemental shaman is going to spend most of his time killing bats, you should probably recommend that he pick up another talent (I'd probably recommend Primal Elementalist as it has the most direct application to the AoE role he's filling) instead of Elemental Blast. Or you could find someone better to handle the AoE, as chain lightning is not the best option to deal with that many targets. Perhaps change the assignments for your shadow priest and your shaman.

There's probably room for improvement in many of your raiders talent selections and rotation choices. Your raid's overall DPS is 50k lower than it was in my own raid for our kill, despite your tanks doing 38k more DPS (between the two of them) than our tanks did. But DPS tends to go up as people learn to anticipate the mechanics correctly, so it's probably not worth spending much time worrying about it until you see that adds are not dying fast enough or something like that.

In your 3 minute 16 second log, you guys took a total of 16 million damage from rockfalls. My kill was 6 minutes and 15 seconds and the total rockfall damage was 19.3 million. You've taken 83% of the damage we took in 52% of the time.

Your shadow priest and warlock are the worst offenders, followed by your druid and elemental shaman. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hg5ks4yqnmhdtj4s/spell/134476/?s=5622&e=5818
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90 Goblin Shaman
9475
Don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said amytis, except about the ele shaman if he isnt using elemental blast which as you say probably is because hes on bats he should be using primal elementalist, no reason not to. Which I did recommend switching to on that fight.

interesting, point about rockfalls, how did you handle it exactly? On our 6 minute kill we took 25.8 million dmg from rockfall so I was looking at the healing from that perspective. None of our dps were worried about moving from rockfall farther than the circle on the ground, probably because in our 25m it doesnt really make a whole lot of difference to avoiding the ~60k dmg from being near one.
Edited by Qyrix on 4/9/2013 11:15 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
2 tank 3 heal it. The enrage should NOT be your problem. Single tanking it would be too difficult/dangerous and dealing with the stomp + rockfall damage with only 2 healers would be bothersome. We didn't have that much trouble with rockfall after quake in our 10 man kills but in the worse case scenarios when we had no cooldowns people would dip as low as 20% but healers always kept people alive. Throw out heals before and after stomp and you shouldn't be losing anyone even if you have no major cooldowns. If people are dieing to rockfall it's probably because they stood in a direct hit to eat ~350k damage, they are running out of thier healers range, or their healers just aren't being reactive.

BTW bats seem to be causing a lot of your wipes. You need a tank picking them up and keeping them off healers. Healers should feel comfortable deal with rockfall damage following quake and not have to worry about geting eaten by bats (except for a couple seconds when bats spawn as quake happens :D). Not many attempts made it passed the first stone breathe so there is a lot fail at kicking the shell. Have 1 - 2 people dedicated to kicking the shell for stone breathe. DBM gives reliable timers for it but it sometimes doesn't start casting until a few seconds coming off of cooldown since the boss is doing snap on a tank or something. I suggest using and practicing the following macro for shell kicking:

/click ExtraActionButton1

That macro makes it much easier to hit the shell if you are struggling to manually click it (which I wouldn't suggest doing unless you have to). For the FIRST breathe you need a turtle dead and ready to kick in time. You should have someone marking a kill target immediately for range dps to kill. SLOW the little turtles or they are very hard to deal with. Snared they are much more managable.

Extra turtles should be periodically hit at the boss to keep debuff up and have the bats positioned for the shell to pass through them to get them dead quick fast. Save a shell if a breathe is coming and you don't know if you can kill another turtle in time. Sometimes we had like 4 - 5 turtles saved up without realizing it and I went ahead and used 2 just because. I'm my guilds primary kicker as a healer ;p I try to let the dps focus and the majority of dmg is during quake as long as the other 2 keep the tanks alive.

Whoever your kicker is make sure they do not wait around directly behind the turtle. Otherwise rockfall can spawn where they need to be to kick the shell and that causes major problems. Just make sure they stay near it in a spot where they can quickly position for the kick. I do not believe rockfall if your MAJOR problem here and it's making things to complicated to try to avoid it through ranging. Your problem is you have other things going on during rockfall because people simply aren't getting the heals. Perhaps you have poor turtle or bats management. If dps are dying from simply rockfall splash following quake then they likely aren't in the range of an attentive healer or thier healers are too disctracted by something else (too busy avoiding the pretty blue circles or an incoming breathe perhaps?). It would be easier to make conclusions with more fights passed the first breathe. Bats aggro, lack of healing following quake, and uninterrupted breathes seems to be causing all your wipes.

None of our dps were worried about moving from rockfall farther than the circle on the ground,


Agreed. We simply side step the circles. It's not worth the time to run around like crazy trying to reduce/avoid the dmg. You're just making the fight more complicated than it needs to be at that point and likely hurting yourselves more than helping.
Edited by Stratis on 4/10/2013 3:03 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
11590
With a Pallie tank it should be no problem at all to one tank it! We by no means outgear this fight yet we 1 tank it and with the amount of HPS that a pallie tank can put out it's just much much simpler as

1) They heal themselves allot
2) They get crazy agro on the bats due to the self healing thus reducing the chance of an "oops bats agroed healer and annihilated them"
3) There veng stacks up allot and they do crazy dmg!

Here is the armory to our pallie tank :
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/feathermoon/Vailness/advanced
Here is our WOL from last week:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/14mr7pdecv9h3ynk/sum/damageDone/?s=6167&e=6501

If you take a look at healing done and compare our two logs you can see there is a huge discrepancy between your tank and ours. This I believe is mostly due to there stat allocation currently.

Looking at your guild were about equally geared and this fight should be a breeze if you solo tank it with that pallie if they look into stat priorities and gearing. From the looks of it they are going for hit exp cap both are great however after that it looks like they are dumping everything into stamina. They should ideally be going for a high haste build especially since you are 10 man raiding! Stamina should be sought after on trinkets as you get the most bang for buck out of them there ilevel wise but when it comes to gems you get much more haste out of gemming that they should be getting there haste WAY up for holly power regen madness! As your pallie is sitting at 1.4% haste vs ours at 19.49% haste they just can't keep up dps / HPS wise due to the lack of regen even though they are about equally geared!

Hope this helps with solo tanking it... coming from the other tank that gets to go lol dps off spec trust me it's fun :P

-edit for bad spelling-
Edited by Odina on 4/10/2013 12:16 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
15910
04/09/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Qyrix
Don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said amytis, except about the ele shaman if he isnt using elemental blast which as you say probably is because hes on bats he should be using primal elementalist, no reason not to. Which I did recommend switching to on that fight.

I breezed right over that last sentence in your statement. Sorry! Yes, he should actually be using a level 90 talent, but we're talking about a difference on the order of 5% of his output. Their numbers do look a bit low, and I think they can make up for a lot of that by simply changing what they're doing (like putting the better AoE classes on the bats instead of the shaman, who is also much better for turtle-chasing, in my opinion, as he has much more freedom to move than the priest).

04/09/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Qyrix
interesting, point about rockfalls, how did you handle it exactly? On our 6 minute kill we took 25.8 million dmg from rockfall so I was looking at the healing from that perspective. None of our dps were worried about moving from rockfall farther than the circle on the ground, probably because in our 25m it doesnt really make a whole lot of difference to avoiding the ~60k dmg from being near one.

I outlined our quake stomp/rockfall strategy in my first post:

One of my raiders came up with the idea of having everyone stand on the left side of the room and then run as far to the other side as possible right after a quake stomp. This vastly alleviated damage taken by people from rockfall for the encounter.

We actually stand on the left side of the little dirt bridge (the more adventurous of us will be in the water) and then head directly to the far right side of the room after the quake. When the rockfalls desist, you can move back to the left side at your leisure. The tank makes the same movement across the front of Tortos (while staying in melee range, of course) and the melee DPS (if they're not otherwise occupied at the time) stay behind the tank to avoid creating a dozen rockfalls in his path.

There's one person in the raid who gets permission to ignore this portion of the strategy, and that's the shell kicker. He may need to kick shortly after the quake stomp, and that's obviously more important than avoiding some 80k hits.

This is perhaps 5 seconds of fleeing from rockfall on every quake stomp (which I believe is like a 1 minute cooldown, or something like that). DPS are still free to do whatever they damage they can on the run, but the focus is on avoiding unnecessary damage. Using this method, it's not necessary for healers to heal anyone but the tanks during this time.

I've killed this fight with two separate (10 man) raid groups, and in both cases, properly executing this strategy was the key that made the other pieces fall into place correctly. Once everyone realizes they can survive this on their own, and the healers realize they only need to concern themselves with keeping the tanks alive, it's much more manageable.

Agreed. We simply side step the circles. It's not worth the time to run around like crazy trying to reduce/avoid the dmg. You're just making the fight more complicated than it needs to be at that point and likely hurting yourselves more than helping.

No one is "run[ning] around like crazy." It's a simple, organized movement which greatly reduces incoming damage.

04/10/2013 02:57 AMPosted by Stratis
If people are dieing to rockfall it's probably because they stood in a direct hit to eat ~350k damage, they are running out of thier healers range, or their healers just aren't being reactive.

Yes, it's probably because they took a direct hit. But not always. Rockfall splashes 80k damage out to 20 yards. Several of those, stacked on top of the 30% hit you just took from quake stomp and combined with, perhaps, a few turtles you might have failed to dodge can absolutely spell death. Our healers were far too concerned with that occurring on this fight and telling everyone that their main priority was not standing in fire alleviates that.
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90 Draenei Shaman
15910
1) They heal themselves allot
2) They get crazy agro on the bats due to the self healing thus reducing the chance of an "oops bats agroed healer and annihilated them"
3) There veng stacks up allot and they do crazy dmg!

#2 is a good point. I hadn't realized that his heal aggro with RF would just dump the bats right on him. Your pally's self-healing is definitely enough to make my raid group jealous, and he did almost as much DPS as both of my tanks combined, so you've convinced me. If you have a good pally who can execute like that, by all means single tank this one.
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100 Gnome Monk
12845
04/09/2013 09:40 PMPosted by Qyrix
your healers just dont seem to be putting out enough healing. especially your monk.


The only thing I can see here is that it seems like he's casting Enveloping Mists a lot and it's hard to tell if he has some sort of assignment or what his goal is. Enveloping Mist takes 3 chi to cast, so in 2 Enveloping Mist casts he could be casting 3 Uplifts during heavy Rockfall damage. He also has a lot of Soothing Mist uptime, more than I would expect.

Is he tank healing?

Expel Harm usage is on the low side. He could try using this more frequently to generate some more chi.

I also like Chi Wave, Glyphed Spinning Crane Kick, and Rushing Jade Wind on this fight.
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