Threat/aggro issues in ToT

90 Human Paladin
9445
So I recently moved into a raiding guild, and running ToT, I've been having huge issues in holding aggro/dealing any sort of dps. Obviously dps isn't my job, but to a degree, higher dps would mean more threat generated through attacks, compounded by RF. I am reforged and gemmed into the haste control/threat model, which I would imagine is the highest damage dealing/threat generating tank build for paladins.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to increase my threat generation? I've read some speculation that Glyph of the Battle Healer will help build healing aggro on top of tank threat, but I haven't heard if that has been verified or not.

The other issue might be my rotation. I usually use:

1. Avengers Shield
2. Execution Sentence
3. Consecration
4. Crusader Strike/Hammer
5. Judgement.
6. Holy Wrath/Crusader Strike or Hammer (depending on CD for each)
7. Holy Wrath/Crusader Strike or Hammer (throw the other)

And of course, Grand Crusader procs take priority and I use Shield of the Righteous as it's available.

This rotation was always sufficient for me in 5.1 because I had cooldowns timed out so that I would be putting an attack out every second until crusader strike and judgement timers overlapped. My biggest focus though was trying to make sure that I used Holy Wrath or Consecration halfway during the other's cooldown so I could sustain my aoe dps.

Last notes, I generally stay in Seal of Insight just to give the healers a hand and boost survivability, and my major glyphs are Divine Protection, Consecration, and Alabaster Shield.

Thanks for any feedback or suggestions.
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90 Human Paladin
13195
Is that your pull "rotation"? Really there isn't a real rotation for prot paladins, it's more of a priority system to maximize holy power generation so you can use your active mitigation as often as possible (and of course timing it for things like triple puncture).

Are you having trouble on adds/aoe threat, or single target threat?

Seal of Insight is good. I notice you don't have glyph of battle healer on your prot spec. I'd replace consecration glyph with that. Consecration's CD is short enough that I've never really found a need to target it somewhere. Battle Healer, on the other hand, generates a ton of threat for picking up adds.

You are hit/expertise capped, so after that the best way to increase dps/threat is to stack haste.

I'd need a bit more information to help you out though.

1. Is it aoe, single target, or both that you are having problems with
2. Is it dps pulling aggro or is it the other tank? If it's the other tank, is it happening during tank swaps?
3. Is this only happening mainly right on the pull, or anytime?

I'll just add that if you aren't taking damage and stacking vengeance, you'll do horrible damage as a paladin tank. If the other tank is sucking up all the aggro on trash, and you aren't taking damage, you'll do low damage (relatively).

Make sure you have Righteous Fury on (you'd be surprised...had to mention it, sorry).
Edited by Bravehearth on 4/17/2013 6:17 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9445
Bravehearth,

I'm having difficulty on all three of those points. With aoe, I can eventually pull some adds off the other tank, but I really have to focus on adds that he isn't targeting. Even then, adds I'm not targeting get pulled off me pretty easily by dps since they're throwing up 120-140k numbers.

For single targets, the other tank (prot warrior) generates more threat than i do, even after the taunt, and the dps can overwhelm me if I'm not executing perfectly.

These issues can happen throughout the fights as well as on the main pull.

I'm definitely going to start using Battle Healer now. I had read that it would help, but I wasn't sure if that was confirmed or not.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14960
What you describe for aoe/trash pulls is really just a demonstration of vengeance in action. If the other tank grabs them all first they'll all be hitting that tank and he'll get lots and lots of vengeance causing him to generate massive amounts of threat. Which means even if you pull a few off of him he still have a lot of vengeance so he can fairly easily pull them back off you simply because they have more vengeance than you.

Same thing happens on taunt swaps. When you taunt off the other tank you have zero (or very little) vengeance, while the other tank still have a large amount of vengeance. So if they continue wailing on the boss after you've taunted they can catch back up and pull off you simply because you haven't gotten enough vengeance yet. For this you need to tell them to back the **** off for a few seconds, long enough so that you are able to generate a decent threat lead as well as some vengeance while some of their vengeance starts to degrade. It's not your fault at all, it's just a matter of how vengeance works (also protadins seem to be more vengeance dependent than other tanks so the issue tends to happen more for us).

But yeah, glyph of battle healer and SoI are definitely what you want. In addition to the extra threat, you'll also be doing a nice chunk of raid healing which will probably be more useful than the pitiful amount of damage that truth/righteousness does.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12420
I'd like to weigh in as well. We aren't very far into ToT and so far when I'm in my normal raiding group, heroics, and other things my threat is fine. I sometimes even rip threat off our other tank with little to no vengeance. When I go into LFR it's a whole other matter though.

On Horridon, I will pour everything I have into picking the adds up and somehow the other tank will end up with agro, or some DPS who had only just started to attack it. On the trash up to Mag, I had 700% threat on one of the mire beasts, the monk tank spinning crane kicked for 2 seconds and I watched it drop to 500, 200, then to 80%. On Jin'rokh I will taunt, immediately use avengers shield and shield of the righteous, followed by judgement and whatever else, usually holy prism for the healing agro and watch the threat go 110% - 97% - 62%. I know vengeance is usually the reason for that but such huge jumps I had never seen on my warrior, nor was this ever a problem.

Even other paladins are causing this for me. I will run into a pack, hammer, consecrate, holy wrath, prism off of myself to hit 5, then the other paladin tank runs in, drops consecrate, hammer, and everything is suddenly on him, not even the target I was concentrating on in the bunch would stick on me.

Is there something I'm doing terribly wrong? I've only been 90 for a few weeks now so I know some of my gear is needing an upgrade or 2, but even so, things like this seem to be wrong.

And yes Righteous Fury is on.

Edit: And I don't know if the armory is updated but I have a bit more haste now than when I last checked it, my CD is down to ~4.24 seconds for hammer and crusader strike.
Edited by Dangoyan on 4/18/2013 12:38 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
9445
Since adding Battle Healer, things have been a lot better. I still have to be ready to retaunt because the dps can occasionally rip the boss or mobs off of me simply because i haven't had a chance to build vengeance.

The only other thing I'm curious about is what what dps you all pull? On a standard, single target boss fight, I pull between 50 and 60k (occasionally 65k and 70k) dps depending on how hard the boss is hitting me and if I have CDs like Avenging Wrath or Holy Avenger up. I feel like this is really low considering my gear is ilvl 501 now and i'm haste stacked.

Would it be worth it to replace some stamina gems with haste gems? I'm up to almost 700k health with flask, food, and priest buff. I'm hesitant to make the swap though since my healers have remarked that I'm really squishy on the front end of fights since I haven't had a chance to start building HP and use ShotR to build my mitigation. That can be worked around of course, but I don't know how much health I should even consider giving up to stack more haste and build dps and threat.
Edited by Davisaar on 4/26/2013 2:16 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
11345
Haste gems will help your threat, but it won't change as much as making sure you are pressing the right buttons at the right time. Almost noone executes their rotation perfectly, but as you get better you will both do more damage and take less damage. The first thing I do when I learn a new spec (or pick up a spec after having not played it for a while) is go to the target dummy and try to drive the rotation into muscle memory.

CS -> J -> filler -> CS -> filler -> J -> CS -> filler -> filler -> repeat

fillers are AS > HW > Conc, L90 talent and SS if it's about to fall off, with AS as the highest priority dps filler with or without grand crusader procs, but not ahead of CS or J.

If you're squishy on the pull, use a minor cooldown (eg. divine protection) so you have time to get some holy power. Also, as soon as you get a bunch of vengeance put up a new sacred shield so you get the vengeance-powered value instead of the tiny absorb value you get when you put it up prepull (which you should still do; it is free mitigation until you put a stronger SS up).
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90 Human Paladin
9445
Amabella, that's the general rotation i use, I just like to lead with AS to create strong initial threat, then follow with the CS-J rotation. I will experiment with it though and try saving my first AS until I've built some vengeance up.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
There's nothing wrong with AS on the pull as it is a solid early threat generator from range. Definitely want to have SS up on pull, possibly pop DP on pull, and maybe glyph Wings instead of Alabaster since the free healing from GoAW would help to mitigate some early damage.
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