Concerning 5.3

90 Blood Elf Warlock
5130
04/17/2013 10:46 AMPosted by Arterius


When aren't the Alliance raging.


When the Horde's raging.

It's not the Alliance that's demanding the heads of Jaina, Vereesa, and Rogers be served to them on platters.
Someone wants Rogers dead? GIVE ME NAMES! I DEMAND NAMES!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5410
First off, making an assumption about what the Horde player is going through is only possible if you're playing through the Horde quest line. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've thought or even said out loud to myself "This is ridiculous! Why am I being forced to do quests for this *** hole?" It isn't a "fun and exciting story line", it's extremely frustrating and makes me hate my own faction!

Second, did you ever think for just one second that you shouldn't be thinking of this as being forced into a Horde story line? Maybe you should start to learn the lessons that you have been taught all throughout Pandaria. This story isn't about Horde players and Alliance players, it's a WORLD story line! It's a chain of events leading both sides to realize that this dude is bad news for everyone in the world of Azeroth. Maybe Blizzard is prepping both sides to work together because that's what's going to be required of the us in the future expansion (( when in all likelihood, we will have to come together to save our homeland from the Burning Legion )).

Would it make you feel better if this was all based around Wrynn being the "bad guy" and perpetrating all of these crimes against the citizens of Azeroth as a whole? Then "oh hey... it's all about the Alliance now, yippy!!!!" If Blizzard did this to both factions at the same time, it would just be ridiculous and overly complex. They picked a story, they're playing it out, and now we get to all be associated and unified together whether we like it or not. Believe it or not, this isn't the first time in the history of Warcraft when the "sides" or at minimum cross faction races have worked together.

That also leads to my opinion that at some point in the future, the factions are going to be majorly shaken up, and I wouldn't be surprised if we all got to either communicate and participate in the world together, or if we were able to pick our own sides..... TBD I guess
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90 Human Death Knight
0
Someone wants Rogers dead? GIVE ME NAMES! I DEMAND NAMES!


Can't give names, since I lost track. Most of them date back to the beginning of Mists, when she had a bunch of Orc sailors gunned down rather than risk trying to capture them. Because when you see a bunch of sailors swimming towards you from a culture where "Victory or Death" is one of their central pillars, and who take a similar view of surrendering in battle as Imperial Japan, it's totally reasonable to assume they plan on surrendering.

And then, of course, there are calls for Jaina and Vereesa to be raid bosses because they ran a harsh crackdown on a political organization that took advantage of the city's neutral-ish position to steal WMDs.

I'd normally say there are some rather unfortunate implications in that every recent thread demanding that an Alliance character become a raid boss almost exclusively targets female characters, but there's probably no malice behind it. It's just that with the exception of the Wrynns, all of the male Alliance characters are either comic relief or sit around all day eating pies.
Edited by Arterius on 4/17/2013 1:40 PM PDT
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Someone wants Rogers dead? GIVE ME NAMES! I DEMAND NAMES!


Don't worry i have my list, Written in the blood of those on the list, it's actually just red ink, but it always sounds more dramitic to say it's written in blood.
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90 Gnome Mage
19205
04/17/2013 12:14 PMPosted by Xavios
First off, making an assumption about what the Horde player is going through is only possible if you're playing through the Horde quest line.


You are acting like we haven't. I know I have. The questing experience is night and day different.

This story isn't about Horde players and Alliance players, it's a WORLD story line! It's a chain of events leading both sides to realize that this dude is bad news for everyone in the world of Azeroth


World story directed by the Horde, staring the Horde......

Seriously though, the whole events can be taken as a world story. But you need to come at it from different perspectives. The Alliance needs their own, unique part of the story. The direction the come in, the actions they take, etc. need to be based on the Alliance perspective.

It is really not okay for me to be plopped down into the Horde perspective. It is ever worse when it also is less story. And top it off getting threats and rudeness from the person you are helping, despite them having tried to kill you in the past. It doesn't work. It makes the Alliance player feel out of place.

When I want to see the Horde perspective, I play a Horde toon. I expect to get quests from Horde NPCs. I expect to see the Horde narrative. When I play an Allaince toon, I want to see the Alliance perspective. I expect to get quests from and Alliance NPC. I expect to see the Alliance narrative. That is what is NOT happening. That is why we have a problem with it.

04/17/2013 12:14 PMPosted by Xavios
Would it make you feel better if this was all based around Wrynn being the "bad guy" and perpetrating all of these crimes against the citizens of Azeroth as a whole? Then "oh hey... it's all about the Alliance now, yippy!!!!" If Blizzard did this to both factions at the same time, it would just be ridiculous and overly complex.


This is a classic case of not listening. Lets try again. Garrosh as the villain had potential to be a great story for the Alliance. The Alliance could be making war plans. Moving on tactical positions and driving the story for at least part of the expansion. The Alliance could have been made the catalyst for action. That is not really what is happening. The whole story is becoming about the Horde rebellion. The Horde story progresses about Horde characters doing Horde based things. The Alliance gets dragged along.

Let me give you an example:

What was the catalyst for the rebellion? The assassination attempt on Vol'jin. Why, did it happen? Just because Garrosh didn't like him. Did the Alliance play any part in what lead up to that? Nope. Did they play any part in the rebellion arc at all? Nope.

Lets say this had been done a little different. Imagine:
The Alliance engages a Horde army. Imagine if the Alliance had ultimately triumphed in Krasarang for example. It is one engagement, not enough to defeat the Horde, but it would have been a major blow to moral. Okay, in comes Vol'jin speaking against Garrosh and using his failure in Krasarang as evidence he is not fit. The Alliance could plant false evidence suggesting to Garrosh Vol'jin was going to try and kill him (woot, real espionage). The assassination attempt becomes a response to that fake evidence. Vol'jin starts the rebellion.

Whats different there? The end result is the same. We end up in the same place. The Darkspear in open revolt. But, for part of the story, the Alliance was the one driving it. The Alliance would be creating effects in the world.

The 5.3 events could be completely separate. Horde doing their thing with rebels, the Alliance doing their thing with the d-day like invasion. Instead we have the Horde doing their thing with the rebels and the Alliance doing the Horde thing with the rebels.

See, that is the key. As an Alliance player we want the Alliance to get to drive the narrative for parts of the story. Control of the direction the narrative takes should be handed back and forth during the story. At some points the Horde would drive it. Others the Alliance. And still others, both sides would do their own thing and just get to the end. So far, the Horde has driven the narrative exclusively.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
You are acting like we haven't. I know I have. The questing experience is night and day different.


Have you seen the night/day cycles in WoW? The lighting is exactly the same.
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90 Gnome Mage
19205
04/17/2013 02:15 PMPosted by Veloran
You are acting like we haven't. I know I have. The questing experience is night and day different.


Have you seen the night/day cycles in WoW? The lighting is exactly the same.


Haha, thanks for the laugh......but be careful someone will fixate on that and we will never hear the end of it. ;)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5410
I'm listening, I just disagree. I apologize if I came across a little ruff or telling you that you're wrong to feel that way. My basic point is that there has been back and forth cycles at all times throughout history. Not every faction, race and player can be the focal point of the story line. I do understand where everyone is coming from with the "we are followers" standpoint and wanting a more active roll, but I think the point is that it really wouldn't be fitting for the Alliance to become war mongers and take advantage of their enemy, when the main story line is showing a fight against that exact purpose. I'm sorry that you feel "along for the ride" on this, and I know that I have no basis for this speculation, but cycles are cycles and I am fully expecting the Alliance to be the primary focal point as the saviors of Azeroth beyond MoP. That is pretty much exactly what the "Alliance" is after all... saviors against incoming forces, not typical aggressive instigators hell bent on conquering, although that has happened a few times in the past under people typically now branded as villains. I personally expect you to be the focal point of the future of our world after this "Horde gets a new leader" plot line plays out and then we "the Horde" could be following your leaders... we'll see I guess.
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I personally expect you to be the focal point of the future of our world after this "Horde gets a new leader" plot line plays out and then we "the Horde" could be following your leaders... we'll see I guess.


Considering how we were told at the end of Cataclysm that Blizzard learned their lesson with Thrall.

Here we are, repeating the same stupid mistake with Vol'jin.

IF you end up following the Alliance around in a future expansion and then again in the next expansion, I'll have no sympathy when you come to qq on the forums.

It'll never happen though. Blizzard didn't learn their lesson.
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90 Worgen Rogue
7000
First off, making an assumption about what the Horde player is going through is only possible if you're playing through the Horde quest line. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've thought or even said out loud to myself "This is ridiculous! Why am I being forced to do quests for this *** hole?" It isn't a "fun and exciting story line", it's extremely frustrating and makes me hate my own faction!

Second, did you ever think for just one second that you shouldn't be thinking of this as being forced into a Horde story line? Maybe you should start to learn the lessons that you have been taught all throughout Pandaria. This story isn't about Horde players and Alliance players, it's a WORLD story line! It's a chain of events leading both sides to realize that this dude is bad news for everyone in the world of Azeroth. Maybe Blizzard is prepping both sides to work together because that's what's going to be required of the us in the future expansion (( when in all likelihood, we will have to come together to save our homeland from the Burning Legion )).

Would it make you feel better if this was all based around Wrynn being the "bad guy" and perpetrating all of these crimes against the citizens of Azeroth as a whole? Then "oh hey... it's all about the Alliance now, yippy!!!!" If Blizzard did this to both factions at the same time, it would just be ridiculous and overly complex. They picked a story, they're playing it out, and now we get to all be associated and unified together whether we like it or not. Believe it or not, this isn't the first time in the history of Warcraft when the "sides" or at minimum cross faction races have worked together.

That also leads to my opinion that at some point in the future, the factions are going to be majorly shaken up, and I wouldn't be surprised if we all got to either communicate and participate in the world together, or if we were able to pick our own sides..... TBD I guess
I've considered all of these things, and thinking in these ways i s the only reason I have stuck around so long.

Now have you, on the other hand, considered the problems from our point of view? Blood elves, for instance -- your chosen race -- have had highly developed lore and a clear focus and purpose each expansion, each time shifting to something new. Even now in this patch, your race is doing something new and is the focus of content for your faction.

Now, what about dwarves? Night elves? Draenei? Worgen? Gnomes? Have they done anything special or interesting since Pandaria started? Have draenei had their story developed or given a new purpose since TBC ended? Have Worgen had a purpose since their starting zone ended (in other words, ever)? Have night elves done anything but kill themselves against the Horde? Have gnomes ever been anything but a bad joke since WotLK (Tanaris excepted)?

The Horde has rich, diverse, and well-developed lore. I don't want to follow Horde quest lines and be led by my enemy's faction leaders. I want to be led by my faction's leaders and fight alongside my faction. I want my faction's races to get new content and be developed. I want to see more of Tyrande, Genn Greymane, Darius Crowley, Malfurion, Mekkatorque, and all the other various Alliance heroes.

Sadly, explaining this to you is probably a lost cause. But if it's not, try considering the other side of the story. If you have not played Alliance lately, perhaps you should try it. Besides the opening quests for the Jade Forest, it's pretty disappointing.

And for the record, following your warchief through a quest chain directly focused on your story is a lot better than 'spying' on the Horde and making petty diversions and witnessing the Horde version of the content since Blizzard is too lazy to make an Alliance alternative for you to do. 5.3, for me, is the last straw, if it is released as is, I will not be returning to the game this patch. But I doubt you are interested in that. All I ask is that you be a little open minded.

Edit: This reply feels redundant, Neeber did a much better job explaining things than I did. I agree entirely with his post. I want to see things through an Alliance perspective. Even if we are forced to help Vol'jin because Blizzard is too lazy to develop separate content for us, I want to be led by the Alliance and fight alongside the Alliance, not help Vol'jin and fight alongside trolls and be led by an arrogant (and out of character) Horde faction leader because Blizzard is too lazy to develop content for us.
Edited by Rixita on 4/17/2013 3:16 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
5390
Sadly, explaining this to you is probably a lost cause. But if it's not, try considering the other side of the story. If you have not played Alliance lately, perhaps you should try it. Besides the opening quests for the Jade Forest, it's pretty disappointing.


<---- This is Xavios, and yes, I have been doing just that because I want to see things from the other side. Agree that the Jade Forest was pretty much Epic. I LOVED it so much... but I will still be a few weeks from experiencing the rest of the 90 content and such. Part of the reason for my switch over was specifically because I'm so fed up with Garrosh and wanted to see what is happening on your side of the world.

Alliance lore seams to be in the past but I remember plenty of times on my old undead warrior main when I was thinking "Okay, Thrall's pretty cool, but what else do we have going for us?"... /shrug

For me, personally, I don't mind who I'm getting my directions from, as long as it's entertaining and I believe in the mission. That's why I would love a more "dynamic" questing and faction system, to get away from "this one side vs this other side".... but that's for another time and place.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5410
Just confirming that Penthelia is indeed me.
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90 Tauren Shaman
13350
04/17/2013 03:09 PMPosted by Seebach
I personally expect you to be the focal point of the future of our world after this "Horde gets a new leader" plot line plays out and then we "the Horde" could be following your leaders... we'll see I guess.


Considering how we were told at the end of Cataclysm that Blizzard learned their lesson with Thrall.

Here we are, repeating the same stupid mistake with Vol'jin.

IF you end up following the Alliance around in a future expansion and then again in the next expansion, I'll have no sympathy when you come to qq on the forums.

It'll never happen though. Blizzard didn't learn their lesson.


We have done it before. You want to hear something messed up? Hear Brann go 'For the Horde'. Do remember, prior to Cata the bulk of the alliance complaints were that their characters kept going neutral. Guess who the horde players had to follow around.

What your experiancing now is the flipside to that. Sure, Vol'jin isnt really neutral but then again the Alliance isnt really following him. They are merely working with him. The Darkspear are a proxy army. You can even talk smack to him and Kosak has suggested that the dialog they will add that you can say to him will make him 'sweat a little'. Thats the potental future Warchief of the Horde our talking down to. When to I get to have Varian 'sweat a little'?

This comes around to the problem with using faction characters as neutrals. It doesnt wash on either side. The closest Ive see it coming to working fairly was the Might of Kalimdor because even though Saurfang was the leader, most of the commanders were Alliance. Both sides had good representation and were their by their own strength.
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90 Orc Warrior
11095
I'll ask what I asked in the other thread...

where is this grand horde story in mists actually being developed? It's main development is the fact the horde was one way and now, to perpetuate conflict, its another. 5.3 is the first time we actually see anything about "what it means to be horde" prior to it all we've gotten is essentially letters from vol'jin
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I would. They supported a violent dictator. They made their bed, let them lie in it (and be buried in it too)


And see the Alliance buried beside them.

Despite the fact that most Alliance players don't seem to like it, that's the situation they are in.

Sure. They can leave the Horde to its infighting. But then they'll still lose the war to Garrosh.

*shrug*

The Alliance isn't helping out of the goodness of their bleeding hearts.

They're helping because they have to.

They're doing nothing more but seizing on an opportunity to save their own skins.
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IF you end up following the Alliance around in a future expansion and then again in the next expansion, I'll have no sympathy when you come to qq on the forums.

It'll never happen though. Blizzard didn't learn their lesson.


Horde gets to follow Anduin around on a leash in MoP.

And he'll, apparently, be the general of that ridiculous army of light nonesense.

It's already started bothering me.
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Do remember, prior to Cata the bulk of the alliance complaints were that their characters kept going neutral. Guess who the horde players had to follow around.


nobody is asking for people to go neutral

far from it

What your experiancing now is the flipside to that. Sure, Vol'jin isnt really neutral but then again the Alliance isnt really following him. They are merely working with him. The Darkspear are a proxy army.


have you not been listening to anything any alliance regular on this forum has said

the problem isn't the alliance becoming best pals with the trolls as they are now (well yeah kinda but thats the lesser issue)

the problem is we, alliance players, becoming subservient to vol'jin and where the focus of the alliance story is

horde players are getting closure to a number of storylines, plus a hell of a lot of development for a lot of leaders

tauren, orcs, undead, trolls, and blood elves all get closure and resolution to their stories from aiding the rebellion and killing garrosh

we're not

we're not in ashenvale

we're not in gilneas

we're not even in the southern barrens, reclaiming what was decimated in tides of war

we're serving vol'jin, in vol'jins territory, in vol'jins name, for vol'jins benefit, with not even a promise that the forsaken or sunreavers won't !@#$ us over again

Thats the potental future Warchief of the Horde our talking down to. When to I get to have Varian 'sweat a little'?


the moment he sneers at you for asking why you should help and says he'll happily restart the interment camps once you and garrosh have destroyed each other

This comes around to the problem with using faction characters as neutrals. It doesnt wash on either side. The closest Ive see it coming to working fairly was the Might of Kalimdor because even though Saurfang was the leader, most of the commanders were Alliance. Both sides had good representation and were their by their own strength.


the might of kalimdor is one of the only times in the world of warcraft where neutrality was done well
Edited by Siast on 4/17/2013 4:36 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5715
This can also be seen in the history of our own world. The USSR and America were allies during the second world war due to their common enemy in Adolf Hitler and !@#$ Germany. So in 5.3 the Alliance and the USSD (Union of Soviet Socialist Darkspear) are going to play nice until Adolf Hitler, sorry, I mean Garrosh Hellscream is dead.


No, it more like working for Lenine to kill Staline. ( or vice & versa, I don't remember who was first)

Add to that the way that we are spoken to...

I don't see why we should even try to help.

I'm starting to think that I should take a break until the next expension and simply forget MOP.
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90 Tauren Shaman
13350
nobody is asking for people to go neutral

far from it


Kind of missing my point but oh well.

have you not been listening to anything any alliance regular on this forum has said

the problem isn't the alliance becoming best pals with the trolls as they are now (well yeah kinda but thats the lesser issue)

the problem is we, alliance players, becoming subservient to vol'jin and where the focus of the alliance story is


Have you actually been doing the PTR cause what you have seen and what I have seen are very different.

Dont get me wrong. The current alliance quests are rubbish but not because they make the alliance 'subservient' to Vol'jin. Your not one of Vol'jin's minions. Your an allaince rep helping prop up a rebellion so it weakens your main enemy Garrosh.

Now its a fair arguement that the Alliance doesnt get any real development in this patch and that I agree is a problem. The Alliance has far too little presense. The fact the Alliance is gearing up to attack Org should have been far more shown.

However what they have done as a bare bones isnt half as bad as people are playing it up to be. They make it sound like Alliance players are groveling before Vol'jin and begging for his praises.

tauren, orcs, undead, trolls, and blood elves all get closure and resolution to their stories from aiding the rebellion and killing garrosh


They are? Havent seen much from the undead and the tauren have been turned into complete pussies for the last two years to explain them kissing Garrosh's !@#. Orcs frankly have been made to look like $%^- so they can play the villian. Lets get this clear, the events playing out are interesting but the faction I started playing back in Vanilla has been raped and mutalated with the villian bat just so Horde Warchief can be a raid boss. Name one orc who is part of the rebellion apart from the human orc, Go'el.

we're not in ashenvale

we're not in gilneas

we're not even in the southern barrens, reclaiming what was decimated in tides of war


The Alliance already almost completely holds ashenvale.

Reclaiming Gilneas will do nothing in aiding the alliance beat the horde. It makes no sense taking it at this point.

Considering most of the caravans are coming from the forts destroyed in Tides of War Id say they have already been reclaimed.

the moment he sneers at you for asking why you should help and says he'll happily restart the interment camps once you and garrosh have destroyed each other


The fact that your able to talk smack to the guy who might soon be my Warchief is bad enough.

the might of kalimdor is one of the only times in the world of warcraft where neutrality was done well


Not true. Its the only time a playable faction based neutral force was done well. Most truely neutral groups like the Mantid, the Lorewalkers, the Shado Pan, the Wyrmrest Accord, etc.. work fine. Its when faction leaders and interests get involved that it tends to go to hell. Frankly I dont like either faction having to follow around the other factions characters. Brann is no more neutral than Thrall was and hordies had to follow him around to two expansions.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
04/10/2013 03:30 PMPosted by Shmala


I would. They supported a violent dictator. They made their bed, let them lie in it (and be buried in it too)
I;m sorry that as a Horde player I have to be subject to the whimsical moods of the writers in how they want to Horde to be to suit the needs of the Heroic Alliance.

Hey guys, let's make the most obnoxious Horde character a warchief-bring the war back, amirite?

Okay, turns out that was kinda lame, let's try to make him at least semi-likable.

Woops, turns out the War is dying down already, let's fix that.

I just want the rollercoaster to stop-Watch as after this grand gesture of Faction co-operation, Baine will say Tyrande is fat and the War will be on again in full swing.


There's a thing called actions and consequences. Right now, the Horde will be escaping the consequences of their actions. Whether you like it or not, the Horde was engaged in a war with the Alliance and the Horde players -were- helping persecute that war. Their hands are very bloody and they took part in a lot of the battles. The Horde, ALL of the Horde is bloody and involved. Yet the part of the Horde the player is a part of will be escaping the consequences of their actions and it'll be 'forgiven' because they chose to rebel.

04/10/2013 03:47 PMPosted by Grimroar
I would. They supported a violent dictator. They made their bed, let them lie in it (and be buried in it too)


And that just highlights how psychotic you are.


Not psychotic, but someone who believes in justice and just rewards for actions committed.
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