Longtime Disco... Going Holy... 10M

90 Undead Priest
7425
As a long time Disc priest, I'm going to be trying Holy in our 10M raid tomorrow.

we're 9/12, we 3 heal most fights with a Holy Pally and Resto Druid/Shammy.

I've read the guides, forum posts from Twistedmind, Kaels, Ashleycakez and others.

Any tips from other discos who have done the switch too?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9420
I am in a similar situation to you...this tier is the first time i've ever seriously pursued the holy spec. We do 2heal most fights so my experience might be different from you, but here are some observations from the first couple weeks of the switch.

1. Don't be afraid to stop casting/throttle your output when it's not needed. Disc is a bit spoiled with atonement imo. Sitting at 5 stacks of evangelism during light damage and just smiting away is incredibly mana efficient and great for light triage. Holy lacks an equivalent tool. The only time I would cast Heal (the closest thing to a smite equivalent holy has) would be to cheaply refresh renews while in the serenity chakra.

2. Get out of the proactive mindset...it will oom you. While there are certain exceptions to this (ie pre-hotting key people prior to damage bursts) in general holy's output is quite good, but really begins to shine when the raid is not topped very often. Let the health bars dip, and let your hots and mastery do their job. In my experience spells cost too much to waste on people that will soon be topped anyways...if people are constantly sitting at 100% then you might want to consider disc.

3. Dat chakra. I still haven't figured out which chakra to hang out in for the majority of my time. This is the most frustrating part of holy healing in a 10man imo...especially when you 2heal. By necessity both healers must do a bit of everything...tank healing, triage, and raid healing. Holy simply is unable to do all of those things well at the same time. A lot of people advocate mostly sticking to chakra serenity and renew rolling with the renew glyph, but that playstyle lacks the raw aoe burst of sanc chakra, and also devalues PoM, which is an amazing tool with the t15 2pc. So experiment, and let your cohealers know which chakra you plan to be using most often so they can adjust their play accordingly.

PS: mana management is a bit rough. Definitely tighter then with disc. Maby I just haven't gotten the hang of efficient holy toolkit use, but I definitely was scraping the bottom of my mana barrel moreso then with disc. So choose your casts carefully.
Edited by Mythrose on 4/8/2013 10:56 AM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
7425
I am in a similar situation to you...this tier is the first time i've ever seriously pursued the holy spec. We do 2heal most fights so my experience might be different from you, but here are some observations from the first couple weeks of the switch.

1. Don't be afraid to stop casting/throttle your output when it's not needed. Disc is a bit spoiled with atonement imo. Sitting at 5 stacks of evangelism during light damage and just smiting away is incredibly mana efficient and great for light triage. Holy lacks an equivalent tool. The only time I would cast Heal (the closest thing to a smite equivalent holy has) would be to cheaply refresh renews while in the serenity chakra.

2. Get out of the proactive mindset...it will oom you. While there are certain exceptions to this (ie pre-hotting key people prior to damage bursts) in general holy's output is quite good, but really begins to shine when the raid is not topped very often. Let the health bars dip, and let your hots and mastery do their job. In my experience spells cost too much to waste on people that will soon be topped anyways...if people are constantly sitting at 100% then you might want to consider disc.

3. Dat chakra. I still haven't figured out which chakra to hang out in for the majority of my time. This is the most frustrating part of holy healing in a 10man imo...especially when you 2heal. By necessity both healers must do a bit of everything...tank healing, triage, and raid healing. Holy simply is unable to do all of those things well at the same time. A lot of people advocate mostly sticking to chakra serenity and renew rolling with the renew glyph, but that playstyle lacks the raw aoe burst of sanc chakra, and also devalues PoM, which is an amazing tool with the t15 2pc. So experiment, and let your cohealers know which chakra you plan to be using most often so they can adjust their play accordingly.

PS: mana management is a bit rough. Definitely tighter then with disc. Maby I just haven't gotten the hang of efficient holy toolkit use, but I definitely was scraping the bottom of my mana barrel moreso then with disc. So choose your casts carefully.


Thanks for the feedback!

I've been practicing my rotation in LFR's this weekend. I certainly see what you mean about holding back.

I wish there as an addon that would show you high high your EoL ticks go. You could really let the mastery do it's work and overheal less.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9420
Again keep in mind I am in the process of figuring out holy as well, but another thing I've noticed is that stat priorities can and will change depending on your healing style.

Example: haste breakpoints. If you are going to hang out a lot in sanc chakra, you probably are not going to be using renew very much. Do you really need to hit a renew breakpoint, or are you better off investing in mastery? Conversely, renew doesn't proc EoL, so if you are relying heavily on that, mastery is somewhat devalued.
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90 Undead Priest
7425
Again keep in mind I am in the process of figuring out holy as well, but another thing I've noticed is that stat priorities can and will change depending on your healing style.

Example: haste breakpoints. If you are going to hang out a lot in sanc chakra, you probably are not going to be using renew very much. Do you really need to hit a renew breakpoint, or are you better off investing in mastery? Conversely, renew doesn't proc EoL, so if you are relying heavily on that, mastery is somewhat devalued.


I've thought about that too.

Haste is an excellent throughput stat, regardless of extra renew ticks. If the ebb and flow of holy healing is dealing with sustained burst, and otherwise conserving mana, Haste is probably still the goto stat.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9420
Haste is an excellent throughput stat, regardless of extra renew ticks. If the ebb and flow of holy healing is dealing with sustained burst, and otherwise conserving mana, Haste is probably still the goto stat.


No argument with that, if your mana can hold up. I've personally found that if i hit the ~4700 haste breakpoint and hang out in sanc chakra, i am pretty oom at the end of an intense fight (I've specifically done this on megaera and iron qon). I guess it really does come down to what your role is though...if you really can afford some downtime inbetween your massive burst healing then haste will probably win out even in sanc chakra. My thought is more that holy's burst is great regardless of stats, and mastery helps quite a bit with mana longevity.
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90 Undead Priest
7425
FWIW... I followed Twistedmind's advice. Haste to 4721 then mastery.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9420
Fair enough! Just make sure to check your healing breakdown after you've done a few normal modes, and see how much %healing done is renew. if it's low, that means the haste breakpoint begins to loose value for you.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8790
I've been using crit and mastery as holy for the few fights that I go holy and it doesn't seem all that detrimental.

Granted I often go holy for better burst healing on a few targets, not mass aoe...

I've found that holy is a bit of a mana to throughput conversion machine. You'll never run out of things to cast and as long as you budget your mana, you can burst like a KING.
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90 Undead Priest
7425
^^^ Do you find yourself juggling different chakras throught fights?
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90 Draenei Shaman
10225
If Darth doesn't mind I'd like to add a question to this thread. I too am in the same position. I have always and only had my Priest as Disc since I created her way back when. I'm looking at sometimes raiding with another Disc Priest and am looking at going Holy. I have done a few LFR's in Holy to try and at least get a feel for the spec.

Does Holy do a lot more hard casting then Disc when raid healing? Disc does have Penance which is a great instant heal, but would Holy be hard casting GH a lot? Or would we be relying more on renew, PoM, CoH and PoH? (I feel so stupid asking this but Disc's play style is pretty unique and while I obviously hard cast as a Shammy I don't know what Holy does)

I was reading a post on here a while back that was answering a Holy Priest's concerns about mana in 10 mans when they have to handle some of the tank healing and the raid. They said it was better to remain in our single target Chakra over our AoE one. I would assume we would lose too much oomph during times of higher raid damage. I was curious if any Holy Priest did things this way.

If I have time (i.e. periods of low damage) to change my Chakra is it worthwhile if I know I'm going to have to go from intense raid healing to something where it's more single target healing? Is it worthwhile to take the risk in case something goes wrong and I can't get back into my other Chakra?
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90 Undead Priest
7425
Talai - You might find this helpful:

http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1613
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9420
Talai - You might find this helpful:

http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1613

While that guide is indeed helpful, it's not quite so black and white as linking a guide, especially in 10man, where you quite often need to play a bit of all roles.

04/08/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Talai
Does Holy do a lot more hard casting then Disc when raid healing? Disc does have Penance which is a great instant heal, but would Holy be hard casting GH a lot? Or would we be relying more on renew, PoM, CoH and PoH?

In my (limited) experience, regardless of which chakra you are in, GH is a spell you cast because you have to, not because you want to. Its hpm is lower then your three best aoe abilities: PoH, CoH, and PoM.

04/08/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Talai
I was reading a post on here a while back that was answering a Holy Priest's concerns about mana in 10 mans when they have to handle some of the tank healing and the raid. They said it was better to remain in our single target Chakra over our AoE one.

This is in my opinion something that needs to be discussed more. In my mind: Sanc chakra is what every holy priest would want to be in if the fight allowed it. It directly boosts your highest throughput spells, and amplifies holy's strength: raid healing. The main drawback is flexibility; if you find yourself in the position of needing to use single target healing like gheal, not only are you using an inherently sub-optimal ability from both an hps and hpm standpoint, but you are further penalized by not being in the correct chakra for it.

Is it better to remain in chakra serenity though? Even in serenity, PoH outperformes Gheal, but the gap is smaller (obviously). I guess it depends on what your role is. If you are playing holy for the burst healing capability, you probably want to be in Sanc, because it takes our highest hps spells and amplifies them. If you are looking for a mix of single target and aoe, I'd probably say that it would be better to stay in chakra serenity, use/abuse renew rolling, and eat the reduced output on PoH/PoM/CoH when you need to cast it.

Thoughts?
Edited by Mythrose on 4/8/2013 2:13 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
7425
Thoughts?


At the end of a fight, PoM/CoH/PoH are my top healing spells.

Would it be worth it to reduce my top 3 healing abilities by 25%, to buff the direct healing spells that account for far less my overall healing?

The beauty of Chakra is we CAN switch back and forth.

The fight that immediately comes to mind is Dark Animus. Tanks get rocked in the first 10 seconds of the fight when they're tanking two small animi. As disc I'd grace it up, PW:S and Get a Gheal going.

I think as Holy, I'd go Serenity Chakra, FH-FH-Gheal. After the spiky tank dmg is done, I'll go Sancuary Chakra for the aoe boost.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8790
^^^ Do you find yourself juggling different chakras throught fights?


For 10 mans, I usually sit in serenity and play like a resto druid. Rolling renews with some decent burst tank healing. Really Kaels puts it best. Sanc is burst, serenity is sustained and smite chakra is conservation (when you can afford to dps).

I tend to prefer serenity for most fights, and only swap to aoe for things like Iron Qon's face smashing thing, and megaera's rampage.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9420
For 10 mans, I usually sit in serenity and play like a resto druid. Rolling renews with some decent burst tank healing. Really Kaels puts it best. Sanc is burst, serenity is sustained and smite chakra is conservation (when you can afford to dps).

I tend to prefer serenity for most fights, and only swap to aoe for things like Iron Qon's face smashing thing, and megaera's rampage.

In general I agree, but take iron qon for example. High damage first phase that I actually stay in serenity for because damage is not going on the whole raid at once. So ignore that first phase. The 2nd and 3rd phase are somewhat constant damage phases, which would seem to say go serenity by your logic. Problem is, the damage is mostly aoe. Is it worth it to stay in sanc and simply throttle your output, or should I switch to serenity and sprinkle the renews around?

I guess more generally, what chakra is best when you need sustained aoe healing...the chakra that caters to sustained and single target, or the one that caters to burst and aoe?
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90 Undead Priest
7425
I guess more generally, what chakra is best when you need sustained aoe healing...the chakra that caters to sustained and single target, or the one that caters to burst and aoe?


Really depends on your content and other healers, I think.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8790
I guess more generally, what chakra is best when you need sustained aoe healing...the chakra that caters to sustained and single target, or the one that caters to burst and aoe?


For Iron Qon, I stayed in Serenity until the final phase where he has no mount. Then I swapped to sanc to help deal with the facesmash ability.

It's really worth staying in serenity for light to moderate aoe damage and for burst healing for single targets. Sanctuary is for heavy damage phases like Jin'rokh's lightning storm, the end phase of iron qon, megaera's rampage, etc.

For 10 man, at least. In 25 man, I'd probably advocate camping in sanc chakra. Renew rolling isn't quite as strong there. (Much like eternal flame, really.)
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
Does Holy do a lot more hard casting then Disc when raid healing? Disc does have Penance which is a great instant heal, but would Holy be hard casting GH a lot? Or would we be relying more on renew, PoM, CoH and PoH? (I feel so stupid asking this but Disc's play style is pretty unique and while I obviously hard cast as a Shammy I don't know what Holy does)

Holy avoids GH like the plague unless you happen to be at 2 stacks of Serendipity at the precise time that you need a giant single-target healbomb. Outside of 2x Serendipity, it's barely more efficient than Flash Heal, and at current gear levels Flash Heal actually pulls ahead when you factor in Serendipity charge generation.

If you need high-throughput single-target healing and Holy Word: Serenity is down, FH is your go-to. But you don't go to it much.

On fights where you choose the Chakra: Serenity Renew-heavy approach, you may spend a significant amount of time hard casting Heal. But I think it's less time than Disc spends doing Atonement.

On fights where you choose the Chakra: Sanctuary approach, your main (and hopefully only) hard-cast spell is PoH. You spend under half your active time, and probably under 25% of your total time, actually casting it. I think 3-6 PoH per minute is what's typically sustainable.

Problem is, the damage is mostly aoe. Is it worth it to stay in sanc and simply throttle your output, or should I switch to serenity and sprinkle the renews around?

I guess more generally, what chakra is best when you need sustained aoe healing...the chakra that caters to sustained and single target, or the one that caters to burst and aoe?

If the damage pattern fits PoH well, then Sanc will theoretically outperform Serenity. PoH on 5 targets in Sanc with low overheal beats the Serenity casting pattern for HPM, which is the limiting factor on sustained damage.

The problem with Sanc for sustained is that you need to discipline yourself heavily; you can't flit around tossing out Renews and Heals, you can't just cast CoH on CD when it's not really necessary, etc. You need to wait for raid health to actually drop before you start doing things.

And that, in addition to being potentially difficult for you, can cause your co-healer to stress out because they think the damage is heavier than it really is ("WHY IS EVERYBODY AT 70% HEALTH?!?! THEY'RE ALL DYING OMG"), and they tend to try to overcompensate (reason #9001 why I like healing with resto shamans).

You also need to consider your co-healer. Serenity will typically work better with specs/players who tend to heal the raid unevenly (notably paladins), because uneven healing works against PoH. Sanc will work well with specs who tend to even out raid health (notably shamans)(reason #9002). Druids, monks, and disc priests...it really depends on the damage pattern and how they're playing.

But honestly, you can make either one work in pretty much any situation.
Edited by Kaels on 4/8/2013 6:23 PM PDT
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100 Undead Rogue
5530
after the pvp 4 set bonus Im convinced this needs to be implemented in pve. It just makes Holy SO much fun. Stance Danceing in pve would be super fun.
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