How is Ask Mr. Robot for advice on heal gear?

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Tiriel, we are always chatting with top theorycrafters to fine-tune our weights. If you tell me what you think they should be and why, we will take a look. We can add extra preset weights as well :)


I firmly believe that healers need to learn their stat weights without the help of a site like yours. As I said, I have no problem with people who know what their stat weights are, what heir haste breaks are, etc, going to the site to use it to achieve those goals, but I do not believe in sending a new healer or someone unfamiliar with that information there until such times as they have researched the information and know what they're looking at.
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90 Tauren Druid
8680
If you know your class and understand basic math and you educate yourself on mrrobot and how to actually use it, there's nothing wrong with mrrobot.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7275
If you know your class and understand basic math and you educate yourself on mrrobot and how to actually use it, there's nothing wrong with mrrobot.

When AMR is telling me to reforge out of haste when I'm already below my ReM breakpoint, yes there is. I don't recommend it to anyone, much less someone who is trying to learn the intricacies of the role by learning the importance of one's own stat weights.
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90 Troll Druid
11860
Zooper, I'm sorry, but I too wouldn't recommend any healer to go to Ask Mr. Robot. There are too many factors in healing that it can't be boiled down to just math. There's haste breakpoints, individual raid needs, individual playstyles, Spirit comfort levels, and many other factors. Look at Disc priests: they can stack either haste or crit and do well with either; the difference between the two is negligible at best, non-existent at worst. You can't boil healing to just math.


But everything you just cited can be taken into account when we're strictly dealing with reforging/gems. Since you can set it anyway you like, from a -0- value to anything in-between to absolute I don't see a problem from your argument.

As an example, one can manually set to value either crit or haste to your personal choice and obtain a correct reforge from your current gear to any cap (s) you desire that takes into account stats to reforge optimally based upon your input values.

Haste breakpoints can be set even allowing you to set avalue for soft or hard caps.

These arguments always fall back upon the assumption that a person who has no idea on how to properly use the tool means that the tool itself is somehow 'bad'. Or that if you visit the tool and obtain some reforge with values that differ from your own personal likes means it's completely useless.

Again it's a tool. A tool with a lot of flexibility to set it anyway you desire and obtain results based on those choices.
Edited by Moophious on 4/10/2013 12:09 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
8680
04/10/2013 12:02 PMPosted by Fistlobster
If you know your class and understand basic math and you educate yourself on mrrobot and how to actually use it, there's nothing wrong with mrrobot.

When AMR is telling me to reforge out of haste when I'm already below my ReM breakpoint, yes there is. I don't recommend it to anyone, much less someone who is trying to learn the intricacies of the role by learning the importance of one's own stat weights.


If you or anyone uses AMR to learn stat weights and breakpoints, well I pray I never raid with them.

Go learn a class. Stat weights and breakpoints. Then learn how to use AMR. And AMR doesn't fondle my monk around like you claim it does yours. You must've played with something.

It is a guide to help reforge/gem based on stats that...YOU CHOOSE. You choose them. Dont let it or anything tell you how to play your character. Learn how to set it up properly.
Edited by Tonydanza on 4/10/2013 12:08 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
If you or anyone uses AMR to learn stat weights and breakpoints, well I pray I never raid with them.

Go learn a class. Stat weights and breakpoints. Then learn how to use AMR. And AMR doesn't fondle my monk around like you claim it does yours. You must've played with something.

It is a guide to help reforge/gem based on stats that...YOU CHOOSE. You choose them. Dont let it or anything tell you how to play your character. Learn how to set it up properly.


That's kind of the point of most of these replies, though. People are asking, "Should I go to AskMrRobot to figure out my haste breaks and stat weights" and we're saying, "No, you should figure that out first. Never rely on AskMrRobot to teach you that."
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90 Troll Druid
11860
If you or anyone uses AMR to learn stat weights and breakpoints, well I pray I never raid with them.

Go learn a class. Stat weights and breakpoints. Then learn how to use AMR. And AMR doesn't fondle my monk around like you claim it does yours. You must've played with something.

It is a guide to help reforge/gem based on stats that...YOU CHOOSE. You choose them. Dont let it or anything tell you how to play your character. Learn how to set it up properly.


That's kind of the point of most of these replies, though. People are asking, "Should I go to AskMrRobot to figure out my haste breaks and stat weights" and we're saying, "No, you should figure that out first. Never rely on AskMrRobot to teach you that."


I'll agree with that but to be fair to the creators, we must take into account the ability to make it work for us and in fact it does allow that.

A few of the problems I often read about is the person who goes to AMR and wonders how it could list such and such trinket as BiS or how it places a certain stat so high in relation to the others while not understanding the reason the program is doing that.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7845
You CAN use Ask Mister Robot BUT... Don't use the default stat weights. Test some of them out yourself and THEN plug them in. The defaults on AMR have asked me to get 5% hit rating before as disc. That's when I just stopped using it.

But by all means, if you can figure out your own stat weights, use it as a makeshift reforging/gear changing addon. It's nice as that.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
Kaels, can you give me the character name and realm? Were you using custom weights or default? IF they were custom, can you let me know what those are as well?

Flintte, US-Scilla, default weights.

I was able to get it to work using custom weights by weighting haste higher than Int.
Edited by Kaels on 4/10/2013 1:02 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
8160
Feverflare, when you used the site, did you have a PvP item equipped? If so, Mr. Robot tries to be smart and select the pvp weights for you, which will get you 5% hit. If you select the PvE weights, he knows better :)

Kaels, thanks for giving me that character. So that character can only get to one cap: Haste or Hit. Since hit was weighted higher, that one got preference. The reason Haste has to be weighted above Int, is because the only way that character can get haste capped is to sacrifice 1000+ Int and 1.7% hit to reach the cap.

So we treat the Haste breakpoint as an 'at least' condition, for when it's reachable within the weight's constraints. If that makes sense. So we won't get you 'near' the cap (a little over or under), like we do for HIT. IF it can be reached within the weights constraints, we will always get equal or higher. But weights are there for a reason: they mean something. It means Int is more important, which is why Mr. Robot won't totally throw Int out of the window to meet the Haste breakpoint.

We're actually reworking out stat weight editor and making Haste breakpoints easier to use. We're close to having that ready to beta test. I think that will help in some of the confusion.

But Mr. Robot will still do what you tell him to do - all based on math. It hit is more important, Mr. Robot won't sacrifice the hit cap to get you to the Haste cap. You have to tell him that Haste is more important :)

Lastly, we are constatly trying to educate users on how to play / understand their classes. WE don't create content, so we link people to other content to read. We link to icy-veins for all specs, and also run promo spots to interesting blog posts. For example, last week I pointed resto druids to a blog post on using Mushrooms in ToT. If you have favorite blog posts to recommend, send them my way!! We love sending people to read great content :)
Edited by Zoopercat on 4/10/2013 2:30 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
Kaels, thanks for giving me that character. So that character can only get to one cap: Haste or Hit. Since hit was weighted higher, that one got preference. The reason Haste has to be weighted above Int, is because the only way that character can get haste capped is to sacrifice 1000+ Int and 1.7% hit to reach the cap.

So we treat the Haste breakpoint as an 'at least' condition, for when it's reachable within the weight's constraints. If that makes sense. So we won't get you 'near' the cap (a little over or under), like we do for HIT. IF it can be reached within the weights constraints, we will always get equal or higher. But weights are there for a reason: they mean something. It means Int is more important, which is why Mr. Robot won't totally throw Int out of the window to meet the Haste breakpoint.

Well, the issue is that if he can't reach the breakpoint, or if reaching the breakpoint means sacrificing too much, what the system should do (for Shadow, anyway) is gear around the previous breakpoint instead. Getting him to 22.67% haste isn't doing him any good - he needs to either get up to 24.98% or drop down to 8.32%.
Edited by Kaels on 4/10/2013 2:41 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
Basically, the problem with your model is that it's saying "Each point of Haste is worth X up to the breakpoint, and then each additional point is worth Y."

What it should be saying is "If you can hit the breakpoint, each point of Haste is worth X up to the breakpoint, and then each additional point is worth Y. If not, each point of Haste above the previous breakpoint is worth Y."
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90 Tauren Druid
8160
Kaels, I see what you are saying and agree. Our new Haste system that we are working on will allow users to select the breakpoints much easier. We might even be able to build in a way to auto-pick the best breakpoints.

Thanks for taking the time to give me the detailed and thoughtful feedback, btw. It helps us refine our user experience. Although the tool current works when you put in the right weights, a lot of users still go through the process you went through. We want to make that much easier to use - we believe if it isn't understood very easily, we need to make a better user experience :)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
No problem :)

I really like the tool. It's a much nicer interface, faster loading, etc. than the other tools I've tried, and I've always liked the stat weight flexibility. Just this one issue stops me from recommending it to people who don't really know what they're doing.
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90 Goblin Shaman
8435
Tiriel, we are always chatting with top theorycrafters to fine-tune our weights. If you tell me what you think they should be and why, we will take a look. We can add extra preset weights as well :)


That's the thing though- it's all subjective on the content you are doing (LFR, 10m, 25m), what your healer comp is going to be, and the fights in general.

Some specs favor mastery over haste in some circumstances, some favor haste/crit over mastery in others, while others refer crit/mastery over haste.

And then there's shaman who have such an oddball priority right now, it's pretty much "What are you comfortable with? What gives you the best results?" The only 100% right now with shaman is that there's no reason to go over 50% mastery.

In other words, there's no true set priority- there's suggested priorities- but nothing 100% set in stone.

(I hope I'm making sense at 6 in the morning.)

Hopping on Mr Robot right now, it's telling me to reforge to 66% mastery. Shaman do not need more than 50% of that. From there we prioritize between spirit, crit and haste. In your Edit weights, you should have it listed as to what percentage you want for mastery- not everyone is going to understand how to use that format you currently have.
Edited by Jujubiju on 4/11/2013 3:21 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11195
I like Mr robot. It is an interesting data point to use, and will point out obvious mistakes.

Sure, many people will have their own opinion on weights, which might derive from many things such as playstyle, raid comp or skill level. Healing is one of the few areas in the game where it is still possible to customize your character based on preference rather than strictly what is mathematically superior. Capturing this in a tool can be rather difficult, but Mr Robot does offer some level of customization.

Basically, you can use it, but keep in mind it is not word of god.
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90 Goblin Shaman
8435
Basically, you can use it, but keep in mind it is not word of god.


See and for some godawful reason, people in my guild tend to treat it that way. There's a lot of people out there that do the same.

It's actually one of the reasons I don't like the site. Because people just blindly do whatever the first option says to do without putting actual thought into it.
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04/11/2013 06:01 AMPosted by Jujubiju
Basically, you can use it, but keep in mind it is not word of god.


See and for some godawful reason, people in my guild tend to treat it that way. There's a lot of people out there that do the same.

It's actually one of the reasons I don't like the site. Because people just blindly do whatever the first option says to do without putting actual thought into it.


This is pretty much my issue. The tool is just that, a tool. It can be used properly or improperly (though as mentioned there are some "quirks" that should probably be fixed). My annoyance with it mostly derives from it being the default answer (along with Noxxic/IcyVeins to a lesser extent) given to anyone asking a question about gear/stats.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
3940
Yeah I think it's nice to have, but not necessary. It's like a compass, it can USUALLY point you in the right direction but only if you know where you're going first
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90 Dwarf Shaman
5730
That's the thing though- it's all subjective on the content you are doing (LFR, 10m, 25m), what your healer comp is going to be, and the fights in general.

Some specs favor mastery over haste in some circumstances, some favor haste/crit over mastery in others, while others refer crit/mastery over haste.

For this reason, there are multiple stat weight presets, and you can (and should) set your own stat weights.

04/11/2013 03:12 AMPosted by Jujubiju
And then there's shaman who have such an oddball priority right now, it's pretty much "What are you comfortable with? What gives you the best results?" The only 100% right now with shaman is that there's no reason to go over 50% mastery.

The 50% Mastery thing is not true. There is no proof or proper reasoning behind this number. It was just as number suggested at the beginning of MoP and somehow became law. (If anyone can justify the number, I invite them to make a thread about it in the Shaman forums.)

Hopping on Mr Robot right now, it's telling me to reforge to 66% mastery. Shaman do not need more than 50% of that. From there we prioritize between spirit, crit and haste. In your Edit weights, you should have it listed as to what percentage you want for mastery- not everyone is going to understand how to use that format you currently have.

I agree that we should be able to set softcaps for Mastery (and Crit). Zoopercat, please make that a thing.
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