5.3 PTR Story Notes [SPOILERS]

100 Gnome Mage
21195
This all goes back to the Alliance taking such extreme issue with having to prove they can trust Vol'jin.

Which again, doesn't make sense. Why should he trust you? Because you think you're bigger and badder?


Not so much issue with proving trust, more of an issue with the reverse not also being true.

I think most of us are fine with Vol'jin not trusting the Alliance. I am okay with him being skeptical. But the Alliance does not get to ask the same in return. Oh, Varian's letter says you don't trust him. I get that. So, what are we doing to make him prove his trust? The Alliance players save his friend and go to him with open arms and then have to jump through hoops. Where are his hoops? It should be a two way street here.

But that really isn't the bulk of the issue. These quests are a slapped on way to put the Alliance into the Horde story. No real Alliance development.

Everyone for some reason believes that the Rebellion is a small, rag tag force. When it's not, It's the Trolls, Tauren, Forsaken, Blood Elves, Goblins, and some Orcs. They certainly can fight the long game if they have to. And they could save a lot of lives in the process.


That doesn't make sense. I have said it before. For Garrosh to be the totalitarian leader that he is presented as, he has to be stronger then the rebels. It doesn't make sense that he is dominating and abusing them if he doesn't have the stronger military. Garrosh has to be more powerful or the story just doesn't work.

But guess what? Vol'jin is swallowing that pride and working with the Alliance. He all but says he doesn't like it. But he's willing to do it. All he needs is proof that the Alliance won't stab him in the back.


Go back and read the text to the Alliance players. That is not swallowing pride. He is very prideful and condescending to Alliance players.

But, again, I go back to: Lack of trust is fine. Sides having to prove themselves to each other is fine, if and only if, it is a two way street. The Alliance has just as much reason to fear the Darkspear stabbing them in the back.

Considering what Vol'jin has been through, being snide seems natural


Alliance didn't do it to him. Garrosh treated me bad, oh no, let me take it out on this guy offering help.......
Edited by Neeber on 4/11/2013 7:20 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
15480
Considering what Vol'jin has been through, being snide seems natural.


So we continue trading barbs and let Garrosh continue on with whatever horrors he plans. Good i guess no one learned any lessons from Pandaria afterall.

But, again, I go back to: Lack of trust is fine. Sides having to prove themselves to each other is fine, if and only if, it is a two way street. The Alliance has just as much reason to fear the Darkspear stabbing them in the back.


This too.
Edited by Zerde on 4/11/2013 7:19 AM PDT
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100 Human Warlock
14400
04/11/2013 07:03 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
Because his people will die without our help. If I had a choice I would leave him there and tell Varian about the rebellion, tell he we should leave them to their fate and wait to pick up the pieces. In the longer run, after Garrosh is deposed, the Alliance would be alot better off.

And Vol'jin says he can do the exact same thing.

And yet people don't believe him? I don't think he's lying.

Everyone for some reason believes that the Rebellion is a small, rag tag force. When it's not, It's the Trolls, Tauren, Forsaken, Blood Elves, Goblins, and some Orcs. They certainly can fight the long game if they have to. And they could save a lot of lives in the process.

But guess what? Vol'jin is swallowing that pride and working with the Alliance. He all but says he doesn't like it. But he's willing to do it. All he needs is proof that the Alliance won't stab him in the back.


Again we come to the matter of pride. Vol'Jin NEEDS help. Baine tells him this bluntly. SI:7 is watching so they have to know what the rebellion is and isn't capable of. The ALLIANCE swallows it's pride and makes first contact.

Yes, we know that Vol'Jin doesn't trust them since he said he'd rather the Bell in Horde hands (Garrosh) than Alliance hands. Vol'jin makes it quite clear how he feels about working with the Alliance and everyone is ranting and raving about how cool his is and how he has a pair, whatever.

The player questions about why the Alliance should work with him and Blizzard responds with a snarky answer that just enhances people's opinion about him and lowers the Alliance even more and people just laugh and point when people bring it up (aka whine).

So just how is Vol'Jin swallowing his pride when he makes his stance clear, made no attempt to contact these "outside allies" that Baine told him he needed, and also makes an Alliance champion back down in the process?

And don't feed me he's "deigning to work with the Alliance". From the way we interact Vol'Jin makes it clear that he's the one calling the shots.
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100 Troll Hunter
13885
So, what are we doing to make him prove his trust?

I guess you'll hafta wait to see what Varian does about that.

That doesn't make sense. I have said it before. For Garrosh to be the totalitarian leader that he is presented as, he has to be stronger then the rebels. It doesn't make sense that he is dominating and abusing them if he doesn't have the stronger military. Garrosh has to be more powerful or the story just doesn't work.

"Those who rule through fear only rule so long as those they govern lack courage."

That's one of the lessons learned in Pandaria. Pandaria and all of it's tales are literally a metaphor for the rest of the world. Just like the Pandaren, who were smaller and unarmed, could overthrow the Mogu, so can the Horde overthrow Garrosh.

Garrosh rules through fear. We've known this ever since Cataclysm. And the Horde is gaining the courage to overthrow him.

Go back and read the text to the Alliance players. That is not swallowing pride. He is very prideful and condescending to Alliance players.

But, again, I go back to: Lack of trust is fine. Sides having to prove themselves to each other is fine, if and only if, it is a two way street. The Alliance has just as much reason to fear the Darkspear stabbing them in the back.

Then I suppose we'll see what Varian does about his supposed mistrust.
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100 Troll Hunter
13885
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YjgvoQk7Tq0#!

This is for the thread. The important bits from Dark Heart of Pandaria.
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100 Human Death Knight
13475
For me, personally, I have no problem helping Vol'jin. I have no problem that he doesn't completely trust me. It would make no sense for him to blindly trust me.

I'm willing to help, but I don't want that willingness to be taken for granted. After I prove to him that I bear no ill will, I'd like for him to ask me to commit more and not just assume it.

04/11/2013 07:03 AMPosted by Pyronaptor
Everyone for some reason believes that the Rebellion is a small, rag tag force. When it's not, It's the Trolls, Tauren, Forsaken, Blood Elves, Goblins, and some Orcs. They certainly can fight the long game if they have to. And they could save a lot of lives in the process.


A lot of people have been saying that the Alliance is not allowed to play a long game and let the Horde civil war play itself out because Garrosh has super Kok'ron juicing on Sha steroids or something. If the rebels can fight the long game, why can't the Alliance?

It's pretty inconsistent. Vol'jin's faction is both a rag-tag group of oppressed rebels and a massive coalition of every Horde race. They're underdogs with overwhelming numbers. The Alliance is of equal strength to a united Horde, but the Alliance plus this rag-tag army of most of the Horde is of equal strength to the Horde's remnants.
Edited by Arterius on 4/11/2013 7:40 AM PDT
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100 Troll Hunter
13885
I'd like for him to ask me to commit more and not just assume it.

After you finish the questline he thanks you and admits that he doesn't know if the Rebellion could do it without your help.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YjgvoQk7Tq0#!

This is for the thread. The important bits from Dark Heart of Pandaria.


"Thank the laws of physics you're here!"

More orc stupidity. Memo to orcs: goblins are the backbone of your industrial and technological base.

Glad to see the goblins getting some facetime.
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100 Troll Hunter
13885
"Thank the laws of physics you're here!"

More orc stupidity. Memo to orcs: goblins are the backbone of your industrial and technological base.

Glad to see the goblins getting some facetime.

At least we know Malkorok is the one fanning the flames of Garrosh's racism (Which I suppose we assumed all along).

I still hope Gallywix is a siege boss, though.
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Have to wonder what's going on over in Ratchet. Gazlowe will surely be sympathetic to an appeal by Vol'jin and provide services at a discount...or on credit even.

I'd love to see him get tapped as a replacement for Gallywix, too.
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100 Troll Hunter
13885
I dun know, Gazlowe is Steamwheedle and they hafta stay neutral.

Honestly, I want the Horde to ween off all Steamwheedle mercenary services, like the guards at the Zeppelin towers and such. We have the Bilgewater now for that!

Of course, we can still trade with the Steamwheedle.

I think Boss Mida could be groomed up as a new Goblin leader, or that chick whos name I can't remember that serves as the Goblin player's secretary.
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100 Human Warlock
14400
Have to wonder what's going on over in Ratchet. Gazlowe will surely be sympathetic to an appeal by Vol'jin and provide services at a discount...or on credit even.

I'd love to see him get tapped as a replacement for Gallywix, too.


Well we know Gaz had liked Cairne. He sell Baine supplies at equipment at prices that would've had any other goblin shrieking. Dunno if it extends to VJ though.
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does the alliance get anything close to the battle of sen'jin village?

cripes
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90 Human Warlock
9865
Am i the only one who finds it funny that Zentabra says "I'll take you to Vol'jin" then walks like 30 feet over to him?

Seems out of place. But NOT out of place in the questchain that wowdb had datamined:
http://ptr.wowdb.com/quests/32819-battlefield-barrens
In that quest chain, Zentabra is in Razor Hill village originally (after we released her), far from Vol'jin. Also, in that chain, the ally player has to do quite a bit to gain Vol'jins trust. While in current chain, you just go get some lumber, and you've got his trust.

Looks to me like the wowdb questline was an older version of the questline and they cut it down to the current version, with Zentabras 30' walk being an artifact left over from that modification.
Edited by Wreave on 4/11/2013 12:54 PM PDT
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100 Gnome Mage
21195
does the alliance get anything close to the battle of sen'jin village?

cripes


Nothing we have seen so far. So far the Alliance has a single scenario, does a gather intelligence quests and then does quests for the Horde.

We have yet to see what might be coming. But, the Horde stuff was done first.
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90 Human Warlock
9865
Again, on this thread, I'm sticking just to "just the facts" and clear observations. I'll vent elsewhere. :)

We've seen how bad pride can be for the Horde in Garrosh...but apparently the lesson is lost on Vol'Jin since his silence to Baine clearly indicates that he dislikes the idea. And his responses when the Alliance shows up indicates that he had either decided against allying with them, or was still trying to come to a decision.

For the ally player, the info on the sha of pride doesn't happen until after you have earned Vol'jin trust. For Horde player, you don't gain info until after Vol'jin has reacted to Blaine's statement.

Timeline...
* Battle of Senjin Village
* Battle of Razorhill
* Blaine shows up. Vol'jin hears Blaine's suggestion, but clearly doesn't like it. (Pride?)
* Ally player shows up. Vol'jin is wary and reluctant, demands that player earn Vol'jins trust.
* Ally player delivers supplies and earns trust. Vol'jin agrees to support Alliance landing in Bladefist bay.
* Horde/Ally Sha of Pride quest

While Vol'jin clearly is not happy with Baine's statement, he does seem to accept it and act on it when the ally player shows up. If it was pride that was making him reluctant, he does overcome it to at least some degree. (Edit: Again, only to some degree -- he's obviously far from humble at this point.)

Moira/Pride? I don't think pride was applicable to that scenario. The issue there was not pride, but of mistrust -- specifically, the Wildhammer and Bronzebeard's mistrust of Moira and the Dark Iron.

Again, the pride dialog ends like this:
Shaohao: Things are going to get worse before they get better. Only by working together can we covercome the darkness.
Shaohao: All that stand in our way... is pride.

Pretty obviously applies to both Ally and Horde, who are both going to have to overcome their pride to work with each other.
Edited by Wreave on 4/11/2013 1:24 PM PDT
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Nothing we have seen so far. So far the Alliance has a single scenario, does a gather intelligence quests and then does quests for the Horde.


siiiiigh

i really should get to leveling my troll druid, then
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90 Human Warlock
9865
04/11/2013 08:01 AMPosted by Sybhyl
Have to wonder what's going on over in Ratchet.

Nothing. Ratchet and even Cross Roads are not affected at all, nor is wailing caverns area (I think). No Ko'kron wandering around, none of the regular NPCs reacting to events. Essentially all of the Battlefield Barrens stuff takes place in the less trafficked parts of the barrens.
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