Nobody Enjoys The Paladin Inquisition!

90 Night Elf Death Knight
12620
Python references aside, this is about hopefully constructive criticism for Ret.

First things first, this is not about damage, though damage is a factor on some level. It's about having fun. My perspective is someone who never played Ret before, and though having played WoW since Vanilla, never played Mists until 5.2. So a bit of a fresh perspective. I'm not worried about what Ret was at any point in the past.

Inquisition is not fun. I want a way to refresh it like a Rogue's SnD, or for it to do damage itself like a Shaman's Elemental Blast. Even something small like making your next Judgment critical, which would make all kinds of sense from an RP standpoint. Or howabout during Inquisition, the Paladin's attacks cannot be dodged. Give some kind of encouragement for the Paladin to face his opponent directly. That would feel more Paladiny.

Templar's Verdict, to me, doesn't feel like a satisfying finisher. I feel like it needs to do more. It should steal the debuff application and visual effect from Judgment. Something like that. It needs to hit hard, look cool, and leave a lasting effect on the victim, and right now it doesn't do any of those things.

Utility is neat and all in a 5-man group, but it feels pretty unimportant in groups larger than that. In an LFR group, no one is going to care that I put Sacred Shield on the tank in his time of crisis. But if that shield did reflective damage to the boss, that might give me a lot more incentive to use it.

Again, it's not about doing more damage. I know you're buffing Ret in 5.3. But I don't like how it's being done. I know you like to turn knobs, because turning knobs is easy. But I would rather see a higher ceiling through engagement, not just a new-and-improved win button. And I think you can do it without adding complexity or making it less accessible.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10250
Inquisition can get a refresh mechanic as soon as Censure and Hammer of Justice cost Holy Power to apply.

Templar's Verdict has a much flashier and longer animation than Judgment, along with its own special character animation and sound. And it hits like a truck. :| Tying something else to it would be okay, but I'd much rather have the Physical Vulnerability debuff attached to the attack that a) can be applied before you even start hitting the target with physical attacks and b) is still applied while AoEing.

No one will care if you put a damage-reflecting shield on the tank in LFR either. Except maybe the tank. (The game treats reflected damage as being done by the target being reflected off of, so it wouldn't even count as your damage.) Also, stop caring about what other people in LFR think.

Additionally, utility is almost universally more important in raids than in dungeons. How often does a well-timed Hand save the group in a dungeon? Probably close to never. They're useful, but not nearly as effective, mostly because dungeons are considerably easier.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
I disagree with some of your specific arguments, but I wholeheartedly agree that in general Ret feels that it lacks a lot of the engaging STUFF that many other DPS have.

Inquisition is just kind of there, something you maintain - it's not really an annoyance, but if they made it passive it wouldn't actually change much. Make your Holy damage abilities 30% stronger, give you a passive 10% crit chance through a passive in your spellbook, and nobody would notice/care. Well, you would get one extra TV every 30 sec or so, it would be nice in that respect.

I don't think Slice and Dice or Savage Roar are really interesting mechanics either, they just are there to have another button to press for the sake of having a button to press.

I think my problem with Ret is that your gear and stats don't actually change the way you press your buttons. Haste makes everything go faster, but it doesn't change their relation to one another. Mastery happens passively. Crits happen, I use MSBT and they look really cool on my screen, but there's no actual talent or anything that makes crits do much. They're just extra damage.

And you are correct about some of the aesthetics of TV. It really doesn't have a cool animation the way Divine Storm does, haha. I guess they can address that in a future patch or expansion.

It's really funny because I'm thoroughly in love with my Prot Paladin, and as a former "career" Holy Paladin who swapped to Prot in 5.2, and still prefers Holy over every single other healer spec (and in fact, is more out of love with healing in general than Holy Paladins specifically), I basically have my choice of my absolute favorite tanking and healing mechanics.
Edited by Tailias on 4/20/2013 2:49 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18840
http://i.imgur.com/wJb8QXl.jpg
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90 Tauren Paladin
10250
And you are correct about some of the aesthetics of TV. It really doesn't have a cool animation the way Divine Storm does, haha. I guess they can address that in a future patch or expansion.

Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm have the same animation, just TV appears around the target and DS appears around yourself.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16435
Inquisition can get a refresh mechanic as soon as Censure and Hammer of Justice cost Holy Power to apply.


This.

People really need to stop using the Rogue analogy, it doesn't apply to us.

Utility is neat and all in a 5-man group


Bull.

Our utility is amazing in a raiding environment and it goes far beyond just Sacred Shield. LFR is not a good way to judge anything about a class.

that might give me a lot more incentive to use it.


Your incentive to use Sacred Shield specifically is to soak damage, you shouldn't need anymore then that. Whenever I have a free GCD it goes up.

Outside of those two major points I don't have a problem with your post. I wouldn't be against some changes to spruce up our visuals or give us some fun toys.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10250
TV has a single hammer animation above the target while Divine Storm has a double hammer animation circling the user.

Okay, it's not exactly the same, but they basically copy-pasted the animation with minor tweaks. :P
Edited by Keten on 4/20/2013 3:08 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
16435
The old TV animation was much better, as was the sound effect. Only thing they should have done was make the old animation more noticeable. Just needed to be beefed up a bit.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10250
TV didn't even have an animation before, did it? I remember it just being a standard weapon strike before they redid it in MoP. I did like the old sound much more, though.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Anyone else always find "inq iz hard gaiz" posts hilarious when put up by DKs?
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90 Draenei Paladin
16435
04/20/2013 03:32 PMPosted by Keten
TV didn't even have an animation before, did it?


It did, it was sorta two golden lines of light crossing your target, but they were too small and ended too quickly.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 4/20/2013 3:33 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
10250
It did, it was sorta two golden lines of light crossing your target, but they were too small and ended too quickly.

Oh, like Smite's animation? I vaguely remember a strike doing that, but I thought it was CS. Though...I guess that doesn't make sense since it doesn't do that now. :U
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12620
Obliterate hits like a truck. Templar's Verdict hit like...well, ironically, a hybrid.

Arguments about the TV animation aside, it just doesn't feel satisfying to me, in a way that I don't know would be remedied by a better animation. That part of the discussion is very subjective, so I don't know that much good can come from talking about it. I appreciate everyone's thoughts, but if possible I would like to steer the discussion more towards actual game mechanics.

Yes, I'm complaining about Inquisition. If that doesn't interest you, feel free to not read it.

The examples I gave were illustrations of how similar mechanics from other classes were more interesting. They were not meant to be taken as simplistically as "X does this, therefore Inquisition should do this". I know how very against homogenous class mechanics we all are. That doesn't mean that lessons can't be learned from more interesting abilities and applied to others in unique ways.

What if Inquisition had charges instead of a duration? It would be more forgiving of movement/downtime.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
04/20/2013 03:57 PMPosted by Isialai
Obliterate hits like a truck. Templar's Verdict hit like...well, ironically, a hybrid.


TV hit's like a small truck towing something, with something flying off the back and also hitting whatever's in front. There's the initial impact from the truck (TV), the thing being towed (Hand of Light), and then the launched projectile (Seal damage).

Ret's damage is fine, you just can't look at one place on a meter for the total damage of any single hit.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12620
Anyone else always find "inq iz hard gaiz" posts hilarious when put up by DKs?


I would never use such poor grammar. Also, I never said Inquisition was hard, nor do I believe it to be. I said it wasn't fun. I have characters of all classes. Is it really so important for me to switch avatars to post in a class forum? Should I switch to my priest to post in priest forums? Or my shaman in shaman forums? I'm not a "DK", I'm a person discussing a video game.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18990
You should, but you don't need to because your ret is in your post history.

You need to not compare the damage your abilities do on a DK with a 502 weapon to a very poorly geared ret paladin with a 476, no enchants, and no reforges... or use LFR as any kind of basis for an argument. Nobody cares about who does what in LFR.

Basically every spec has something they have to maintain. Are your diseases fun? Is flame shock fun?
Edited by Cayse on 4/20/2013 4:14 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12620
Ret's damage is fine, you just can't look at one place on a meter for the total damage of any single hit.


Missing the point of the thread entirely. It's not at all about Ret's overall damage. I'd be fine with less damage if it were more fun to play.
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