so...who asked for heroic scenarios

90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Dungeons and scenarios just aren't equal in the time and effort required to create them. Dungeons and raids, however, are equal in the time and effort required.


Can you explain more in depth why? Is it just tuning?

Scenarios/ dungeons both use roughly equivalent art etc, so what makes it a dungeon so much different from a glorified scenario?
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
UE
22395
Of the raids you listed, only ToC was a raid tier. It's not a question of small raids, it's a question of a small raid tier. GC said on twitter the reason we were able to have ICC and new 5 mans was because we got ToC.


So what's the excuse for all the other 5 mans at Wrath and BC release compared to Cata and Mop?
Different people working on the game, different business model?
100 Human Monk
11910
Since when did dungeon progression start at 90?

You do dungeons on the way up to 90. That's how they are designed. That is where they fall.


Ok, so let's look at this ... you do dungeons from 1-89 and then you do heroic dungeons at 90. That's not really a progression. It's a break out. It's a phase.

The simple fact of the matter is that whether you do a single dungeon or not from 1-89, you can step foot into a heroic at 90 just the same. You don't need to progress from a normal dungeon to a heroic dungeon. If they honestly removed the word "heroic" from dungeons at 90 and kept them at the same difficulty, nothing would change.

This is all a worthless point to make though because this is referencing a difficulty progression path. The points that I've been trying to bring across is that their are more things that can be done that aren't just progressively more difficult content that can be fun.
Community Manager


The majority of people coming in mid-expansion want to try to catch up to where everyone else is. You can take your time, if you like; really experience everything the expansion has to offer up to this point, but we want to ensure people can catch up in a relatively quick amount of time if they want to so they can have fun with their friends/guilds - or at least see some of the newest content.


Why is creating large raids AND lots of 5 mans so hard now compared to the Wrath/ BC days?


Because those examples remove the context of time. A lot of the content that released through the lifetime of BC and Wrath was in development before those expansions released, and was intended as launch content. It was delayed and finished off later. Not to mention the life cycles of those expansions was just much, much longer than where we are now. I think there's a misunderstanding that development cycles are much shorter than they actually are, or that we don't begin work on the next patch until the current one is released. With 5.2 we heard that people wanted to see some additional dungeons, but even if we began working on them then you probably wouldn't actually see them until long after 5.4 where they wouldn't make sense any longer.

But we can make Scenario content relatively quickly, we think Heroic Scenarios can get at that same kind of gameplay, and we'll have to see how everyone likes the additional challenge. Like I said we don't think it's going to be a replacement for dungeons, or will appeal to every single player, but we hope it's something everyone will at least try and we look forward to hearing what you think.
Edited by Bashiok on 4/12/2013 1:00 PM PDT
100 Undead Death Knight
13435
So will the heroic scenarios just be the same boring as all hell scenarios we have now but with high gear requirements and the same lack of loot?

Sign me up.
80 Troll Druid
5670
How hard can you make these scenarios, when you have to balance them with the varying levels of self-healing/survivability of all the classes? Will it be challenge mode "hard" by just zerging, and/or skipping your way through trash to bosses to beat a timer?
41 Gnome Priest
310
But we can make Scenario content relatively quickly, we think Heroic Scenarios can get at that same kind of gameplay, and we'll have to see how everyone likes the additional challenge. Like I said we don't think it's going to be a replacement for dungeons, or will appeal to every single player, but we hope it's something everyone will at least try and we look forward to hearing what you think.


Can we blacklist scenarios? Because Theramore was the worst thing ever created I always have to leave whenever that comes up.
90 Night Elf Druid
15070
What kind of rewards will we see from heroic scenarios besides the better gear? Will you add meta achievements and rewards?

I think heroic scenarios sound cool but I will say that for my warrior alt I always liked tanking 5 mans, but I really don't like tanking LFR, and it is kind of a drag to not get new 5 man content to tank. Am I gonna quit over it? Nah, just food for thought. We like 5 mans!

Scenarios are cool and you've been able to do some pretty neat story stuff with them, but they aren't really a supplement, you know? Just something to consider for the next expansion.
90 Pandaren Monk
5015
So will the heroic scenarios just be the same boring as all hell scenarios we have now but with high gear requirements and the same lack of loot?

Sign me up.


I can't wait
80 Troll Druid
5670
I love how Blizzard wants us to think of WoW as a fine dining experience, but is constantly pushing easy, boring, repetitive, no depth dailies/scenarios at us, CA must have some terrible restaurants if that's they're opinion of fine dining.
90 Troll Hunter
6135
Scenarios > 5-mans until someone figures out a way to get 5-man queue times for all 5 participants to negligible and they implement self-contained loot rolls (i.e. lfr/scenarios) ino 5-mans.

Heroic scenarios are like challenge mode dungeons. They'll thrill a very small population segment and be irrelevant to everyone else.

I would prefer more regular scenarios and a scenario blacklist (screw you, beer-swilling monkey island) than 5-mans or heroic scenarios.


they ought to make 5 mans into 7-8 mans keep it one group so that 10+ is a raid instead of 6+.

5 dps 1 tank and heals or 5 dps one tank and two heals. every one gets shorter queues.

Problem solved =]
90 Troll Shaman
0
My main problem with the shift to heroic scenarios instead of new dungeons is that dungeons are still both the most reliable place to gear up a fresh 90, and offer the greatest VP awards outside LFR, which results in fresh 90s and players with ilevels over 500 in the same dungeons. This wasn't as drastic a problem in previous expansions because the different tiers of dungeons split up the population so that overgeared players were running the newest dungeons for their VP while fresh or less geared 90s were running the older content.

The problem with putting them both together is that the presence of these ubergeared players makes the dungeon completely joyless, or even frustrating for me, depending on what role I'm playing. As dps, all my enjoyment of the dungeon evaporates because the ubergeared players just blow through everything so fast that I feel superfluous. When I'm tanking, I'm just frustrated because I'm constantly losing threat on trash to people doing 6 times my dps, and even bosses sometimes start to consider different targets. I can't even always count on the dps to wait for me to make the actual pull.

It was bad enough in leveling dungeons when full heirloom players would ignore the tank, but now the same thing is happening in max level heroic dungeons because without newer dungeons to draw them off, these players are outgearing the current content just as drastically. I know someone will say that I shouldn't complain because the run goes so much faster, but it just sucks all my enjoyment out of the run. As a merely geared, and not utterly overgeared, participant, I'm completely superfluous to the group, and there's no fun in that even at best.

I like scenarios a lot, but heroic versions aren't a solution to this problem unless they turn out to be a more efficient VP farm than blazing through 5.0 heroics.
90 Undead Priest
6795


Why is creating large raids AND lots of 5 mans so hard now compared to the Wrath/ BC days?


Because those examples remove the context of time. A lot of the content that released through the lifetime of BC and Wrath was in development before those expansions released, and was intended as launch content. It was delayed and finished off later. Not to mention the life cycles of those expansions was just much, much longer than where we are now. I think there's a misunderstanding that development cycles are much shorter than they actually are, or that we don't begin work on the next patch until the current one is released. With 5.2 we heard that people wanted to see some additional dungeons, but even if we began working on them then you probably wouldn't actually see them until long after 5.4 where they wouldn't make sense any longer.

But we can make Scenario content relatively quickly, we think Heroic Scenarios can get at that same kind of gameplay, and we'll have to see how everyone likes the additional challenge. Like I said we don't think it's going to be a replacement for dungeons, or will appeal to every single player, but we hope it's something everyone will at least try and we look forward to hearing what you think.


i think a lot of people are confused because, apart from the fact you aren't using as many development resources to build scenarios, you are also making the scenarios different in MANY other ways. primarily, the way loot is awarded and the ability to complete them without tanks and healers.

If it's a resource issue, why do you have to make them soooo different (and in my opinion, worse) in ways that aren't affected by a lack of those resources?
90 Blood Elf Priest
5990
Let's compromise with a 10 or 15 man LFR.
90 Troll Shaman
0
Let's compromise with a 10 or 15 man LFR.


My toaster oven of a computer would jump for joy to have a 10 man LFR. The frame rate assassination from being in a 25 man group is one of the main reasons I don't run it more.
90 Human Death Knight
10690
Don't explain yourself Bashiok. Most people just can't be satisfied no matter what.

Player : We want long raids. Ulduar was omgawesome!

Blizz : Here ya go!

Player : We want to have a way to play catch up like previous expansions. I don't wanna run my alt through all the old raids. Nobody wants to do them!!

Blizz : Here's heroic scenarios that will do just that! Enjoy!

Player : wtf blizz, I want dungeons to play catch up. Not these crappy scenarios that take 5 secs to que up in and half the time to do as a dungeon takes!!
84 Dwarf Paladin
0
04/12/2013 12:40 PMPosted by Bashiok


So we faceroll content for a week and jump to the last tier? I hope I don't strain myself in this epic adventure.


The majority of people coming in mid-expansion want to try to catch up to where everyone else is. You can take your time, if you like; really experience everything the expansion has to offer up to this point, but we want to ensure people can catch up in a relatively quick amount of time if they want to so they can have fun with their friends/guilds - or at least see some of the newest content. It's going to really come down to drops. One week is probably unlikely for many.


Thanks for your response. I understand the reasons for allowing players to catch up but having only one relevant raid that everyone is doing gets old (ICC and DS for example, nobody wanted to do Ulduar after TOC was released). These catch up methods invalidate previous raids and dungeons. As a consequence we run loot pinatas to gear up quickly and that process is not fun or adventurous. I guess I'm in the minority but coming in mid-expansion and knowing that I have to drudge through these loot pinatas instead of progressing from tier to tier is depressing. It's going to be difficult to find a guild that doesn't do the catch up method. Players are pressured to gear up fast and getting anyone to do older raids the intended way is not easy.
90 Dwarf Paladin
9625


Why is creating large raids AND lots of 5 mans so hard now compared to the Wrath/ BC days?


Because those examples remove the context of time. A lot of the content that released through the lifetime of BC and Wrath was in development before those expansions released, and was intended as launch content. It was delayed and finished off later. Not to mention the life cycles of those expansions was just much, much longer than where we are now. I think there's a misunderstanding that development cycles are much shorter than they actually are, or that we don't begin work on the next patch until the current one is released. With 5.2 we heard that people wanted to see some additional dungeons, but even if we began working on them then you probably wouldn't actually see them until long after 5.4 where they wouldn't make sense any longer.

But we can make Scenario content relatively quickly, we think Heroic Scenarios can get at that same kind of gameplay, and we'll have to see how everyone likes the additional challenge. Like I said we don't think it's going to be a replacement for dungeons, or will appeal to every single player, but we hope it's something everyone will at least try and we look forward to hearing what you think.

If dungeon content takes so long to create, then you knew there would be no additional MoP 5-mans a long, long time ago... but this announcement was held back until around 5.2. That's dirty pool.

Anyway, I've said my piece on this topic, and I'm taking any remarks from Blizzard with a grain of salt. I can see the slope they are heading down.
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