Tier 15 Prot chest piece - poorly itemized ?

90 Human Paladin
7295
Gah... got it last night in Halls of flesh shaping, was happy to get a T15 token finally. Then I saw what it was... Dodge AND parry ? Really ? The 3 sockets are nice, but overall, with it being the Raid finder version, I'm finding it hard to justify breaking my T14 4 piece bonus. I threw some gems in it but haven't bothered to equip it, as a quick glance showed it made me lose actual beneficial stats to gain avoidance.

That and the T15 set bonuses seem so underwhelming compared to the T14.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16925
Blizzard will keep putting avoidance stats on Tank gear because they want Tanks to use them, they're just doing a very poor job of actually making them appealing in anyway when compared to Mastery and Haste.

I also tend to agree, I prefer the Tier 14 set bonuses for Tanking.
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90 Tauren Paladin
7950
You can always get the ret piece.

As one prot to another, though, you might want to fix your play before turning your nose up at avoidance. 26.1% ShotR uptime on Jin'rokh is atrocious. Someone with 0 haste but doing their rotation correctly would have significantly better uptime than you.

If you can't step up your game, you're at the level where avoidance would benefit you more than haste.
Edited by Choz on 4/18/2013 2:42 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7295
Wow Choz. Thanks for the advice ? I'll spam ShotR even when the other tank has him to pad the uptime to please you I guess...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17155
Lol, now you don't just get Armory assaulted on these forums - you get log checked.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
Yeah that was out of nowhere.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
The BiS setup this tier is T15 Ret chest, and T15 Prot for the other four slots. We have two good offset chests for the chestpiece though (Dodge/Mastery and Hit/Mastery, and the Hit/Expertise from world boss) and if you can get the 4-piece by doing so, it's worth using the tank T15 chest anyways.

Our T15 2-piece is just kinda... there. It's a nice bonus for after we WoG ourselves, but it doesn't impact how we play and it likely doesn't have a significant enough uptime to impact much. Our 4-piece's benefit is wholly dependent on how much damage you take - considering I'm stepping into 25-man heroics, I'd be looking at a whole ton of potential Holy Power (if Conq tokens ever decide to drop!) which makes it well worth my time. For the majority of raiders upgrading their T14 to T15, it would be a moderate upgrade mostly because of the stats on the gear itself, the set bonuses themselves would be a downgrade.

Also, log creeping from random people on forums is always interesting. Oooh, do me next! I had some random splats on Heroic Horridon progression last night because I was out of melee range when he had a Triple Puncture lined up and didn't have any cooldowns or either of my stack-clearing abilities lined up. Call me bad!
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90 Tauren Paladin
7950
Yeah, I went about that in totally the wrong way, sorry.

Point is that avoidance is an "actual beneficial stat" even though it's not as high up in priority as haste. And all the perfect itemization in the world means squat if you can't do your rotation properly.

It exasperates me to see people complaining about "poorly itemized" dodge/parry gear while pulling the sort of numbers that would actually benefit from running an avoidance build. Do you really know what the stats do or did you just pick up some TL;DR summary without understanding what to do with haste?

04/18/2013 06:11 AMPosted by Berith
I'll spam ShotR even when the other tank has him to pad the uptime to please you I guess...


Yes, you should be casting ShotR when the other guy is tanking. Otherwise you're just sitting on holy power and letting it go to waste.

You don't have to worry about pleasing me (heh), but I'm sure your better play will please your raid.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0

Yes, you should be casting ShotR when the other guy is tanking. Otherwise you're just sitting on holy power and letting it go to waste.

You don't have to worry about pleasing me (heh), but I'm sure your better play will please your raid.


Rather vulgar innuendo, that last bit. And using SotR when you're off-tanking is, what... for damage against a boss that doesn't have a tough enrage? Maybe to gain stacks of Bastion? Instead of, you know, doing a tank's core job of survival and saving at least some of it for a Word of Glory in case of an accident like a lightning ball exploding wrong to ease the burden on the healers as they play a quick game of catch up, or maybe, just maybe, to have some spare in case the first tank dies and he needs to gain immediate aggro and buy the healers the second they need to swap heal targets. Or just to outright cast a Word of Glory, because hey, I'm sure the AoE damage being healed could be more helpful to some healer comps instead of shaving maybe a full second off of the fight.

Dodge and parry are suboptimal, but from what I remember it's slightly more of a case of stacking the same stat being better than balanced stats if you can help it, not to mention Haste just plain being more fun (geez, I wish Holy had the same HP generation as either Ret or Prot).

Fortunately there's off-pieces, and Tailias was good enough to mention them. Blizzard has to keep things interesting, I suppose, with gear. Can't have everything perfect, largely because not everyone gears the same.
Edited by Wards on 4/18/2013 11:42 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
I'll spam ShotR even when the other tank has him to pad the uptime to please you I guess...


Yes, you should be casting ShotR when the other guy is tanking. Otherwise you're just sitting on holy power and letting it go to waste.


Hahaha.

I mean, it depends entirely on the fight.

For Jin'rokh, you taunt off of each other so often that I really only ShoR to burn excess HP a couple times here and there (maybe once each pool), and I only do that when I gauge that I can get a full 5 by the time I have to taunt again... and it's not really for the DPS, moreso to fish for a Divine Purpose proc. You know, to get ANOTHER ShoR for when I am actually tanking. (I'm basing this off of Heroic though, I'm not sure if the debuff timing is the same on normal because to be honest, I just sleepwalked through our kills of that... not to be an elitist or anything)

I absolutely do waste some Holy Power here and there on our Heroic Jin'Rokh kills. Not doing so would be trading my own survival for a few ~80k ShoR's there, when my Vengeance stack is largely deflated from not taking melee damage for a fair bit.

For fights where the tanks are taunting off of each other for extended periods of time, like Ji-Kun or Iron Qon or whatever, then yeah you're gonna mash ShoR for damage because what else are you gonna do with that HP? Just pool 5 for when you have to taunt, and that way you're ready with 5 Holy Power and a full 5-stack of Bastion of Glory for when it's your turn to tank.

You're probably right that the OP is playing sub-optimally and making a big deal out of Dodge/Parry gear being horrible (it's suboptimal itemization, but are the actual stats on our gear *that* big of a deal when we can reforge and gem a ton of Haste anyways? ehh, not really). You're also not really understanding the big picture, and you're also kind of being a jerk about it.
Edited by Tailias on 4/18/2013 12:45 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7295
04/18/2013 11:19 AMPosted by Choz
It exasperates me


You missed the entire point of my thread. At this point, I will not give you a response, that is until you drop the insults, innuendo and assumptions about me. I'm not at all inclined to listen to you or reply with your attitude and off topic discussion.

Now back to the T15 Chest piece.

04/18/2013 12:42 PMPosted by Tailias
You're probably right that the OP is playing sub-optimally and making a big deal out of Dodge/Parry gear being horrible


*sigh* and I actually liked your first point. Thank you for also insulting me based on what ? My Jin'rokh ShotR uptime ?

Anyway, I wasn't making a big deal out of Dodge/Parry gear, can you even quote me saying anything about that ?

I will reiterate my point since it seems it got missed in all of these insults : I think it was poor on the part of Blizzard to use BOTH dodge AND parry on the T15 chest piece and I'm really not feeling the RAID FINDER 502 version I got as an upgrade to my NORMAL 496 version because of the loss of Hit resulting in me probably having to regem hit on my gear.

I'm not against avoidance in general or avoidance on gear, that is just ASSumptions made by a certain party here. I'm left wondering why Blizzard thought, with Paladins the way they are, that BOTH dodge AND parry was a good choice for the chest piece and I'm thinking that the T14 Normal pieces, along with what seems to be their better set bonuses, are better for me considering the minimal Stam/Armor upgrade the RAID FINDER version of the T15 chest piece.

*sigh*, and here I wanted to have a proper discussion on the topic, forget it guys.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
It's not really an insult to imply that you have room for improvement (which is the way I should have phrased it). I'm sure that if Choz looked up my logs he would find plenty of, say, inexplicable falling deaths on Horridon bridge trash. (Just an example.)

I did definitely answer your question (I think? Feel free to reply to my earlier post if it wasn't complete enough). I'm also replying to him jumping down your throat for no reason.
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90 Human Paladin
7295
04/18/2013 02:16 PMPosted by Tailias
It's not really an insult to imply that you have room for improvement (which is the way I should have phrased it).


No, put that way, it's perfectly fine even. We all have room for improvement, no one is perfect. Sorry if I snapped, people like Choz who derail threads like he did really make my blood boil.

I did definitely answer your question (I think? Feel free to reply to my earlier post if it wasn't complete enough). I'm also replying to him jumping down your throat for no reason.


Yeah, your first post was pretty good, confirmed what I read about T15 set bonuses on Sacred Duty (4 piece being a nice 25 heroic type of thing, giving us essentially a 2nd Holy Avenger and 2 piece being meh).

Logging in in game I saw that the Prot chest piece was still refundable. I lost 200g in gems, but I got a refund. I'll think about what to do (grab the Ret chest piece for tanking, grab the ret chest piece for Ret and convert my Chestplate of Violent Detonation to my tanking set or just stick with my normal T14 piece until a 522 upgrade comes along).
Edited by Berith on 4/18/2013 2:47 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7295
Well, exchanged the T15 chest to Lightning Emperor's Battleplate, and Egg-Shard Grips dropped for me also. Still looking into if gaining close to 3.5% haste is worth losing the 4 piece bonus. Though I'd also gain close to 3K health and some armor with these 2 upgrades so nothing to sneeze at.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
4pc's value varies greatly based on what kind of content you're doing. Honestly if you're doing 10m normals I'd go ahead and say don't go for it until EVERYONE else has all the Conq pieces they need, since nothing really hits that hard.

2pc isn't something you should shy away from, it's not great but you don't lose all that much to get it.

So yeah - definitely drop the 4pc in your case.
Edited by Kangarooster on 4/18/2013 10:50 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
13665
You do want SOME dodge and parry. They aren't valueless. They actually have a pretty decent value, especially if you have very little to start with. You don't want EVERY piece to have dodge/parry, but you ALSO don't want NONE of them to have dodge/parry.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7570
Farm Oondasta for Tyrant King Battleplate and get the other pieces, then.

Also, I offheal with my WoG when I'm offtank.
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90 Tauren Paladin
7950
The thing with healing is, just because you made some health bars go up doesn't automatically mean you helped the healers. It could as well mean that you sniped somebody's big heal, pushed an efficient HoT to overheal, or randomly healed someone who wasn't in any danger.

Doing more healing than the encounter requires just makes overheal numbers bigger. Doing more DPS, on the other hand, shortens the fight and kills dangerous adds faster. There are exceptions, of course, but this usually makes life easier for the raid and less of a hassle to the healers.

Given all that, why wouldn't you prefer the finisher that provides a DPS contribution? Especially when ShotR damage is not as insignificant as you claim, Wards, and it also does free healing as one of the three spells that trigger Battle Healer. Sure, WoG heals for more at any vengeance level (assuming zero Alabaster Shield stacks, which should be true while not tanking), but like I said above, the pure healing isn't useful for situations that the healers can handle themselves.

Unless your healers are out of mana/out of range/incapacitated by mechanics, and that guy you're planning to heal is actually in danger of dying, spending HP on WoG instead of ShotR is less beneficial than you think.

Yes, you should be casting ShotR when the other guy is tanking. Otherwise you're just sitting on holy power and letting it go to waste.


Hahaha.

I mean, it depends entirely on the fight. <snip>


Agree with everything you said, but I was answering the guy who thinks using ShotR while off-tanking is just meter padding, not someone like you who already knows the rule and knows when to break them. Seems like TMI to talk about pooling and whatnot before getting down the basics. I've had conversations like:

"You need to improve your uptime, it's low."
"But I'm pooling!"

Not really a good excuse since high haste build can make 3 HP within 5-6 seconds (not uncommon to see 25%+ haste on geared prots nowadays).

Thanks for the detailed answer though. It's something I wish I'd written, but I suck at writing long posts.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
You do want SOME dodge and parry. They aren't valueless. They actually have a pretty decent value, especially if you have very little to start with. You don't want EVERY piece to have dodge/parry, but you ALSO don't want NONE of them to have dodge/parry.
Your logic makes zero sense here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with going for 0 dodge/parry pieces -in the same vein, there's no reason to go for "some avoidance" and then stop abruptly. Diminishing returns on avoidance don't make the stats worse; diminishing returns exist so that avoidance doesn't scale exponentially in strength.

Protection Paladin goes for haste over all else for a reason; the spec doesn't randomly choose to get avoidance because "oh god I need X% of avoidance before I can go haste." Seriously, I hope you understand the gigantic misstep in logic there.

Ergo, Ret tier chest is better than any of the other chests available for Prot this tier.
Edited by Kangarooster on 4/27/2013 3:04 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7295
You do want SOME dodge and parry. They aren't valueless. They actually have a pretty decent value, especially if you have very little to start with. You don't want EVERY piece to have dodge/parry, but you ALSO don't want NONE of them to have dodge/parry.


Hence why pieces with BOTH dodge AND parry are not really good, because they take away from Hit, Expertise, Haste and Mastery which are all better overall stats for Prot right now.

You get Parry from Strength btw in case you didn't know. So even with no Parry/Dodge on your gear, you'd have the base 5% dodge and close to 15-16% Parry from strength anyhow. But you'd also have much better active mitigation than someone who stacks Dodge/Parry.

"You need to improve your uptime, it's low."


Stop derailing the thread with your nonsense, we don't care, it's not the issue and you're just baiting for flames.

You're just hurting yourself posting this stuff. You've been told why Jin'rokh is a poor example and been given many alternatives to just smashing ShotR when it's available.
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