Arcane Mage PvP

90 Human Mage
11415
I know what you're thinking who would honestly go Arcane over Frost or Fire? Is it even viable or effective in PvP? So many questions only us Mages could answer. I'm somewhat interested in trying this out, in need of some help with Glyphs, Talents, & Macros. Feel free to post below Thank you!
Edited by Vaerik on 4/12/2013 6:29 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Mage
7865
Yes, it's very effective in battlegrounds and large groups in World PvP.

This is a vid I recently made showing my burst in RBGs, and am in the process of making a more indepth tutorial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkVsr9hz97Q

In terms of Talents, I use:

Blazing Speed
Ice Barrier
Ring of Frost
Cold Snap
Nether Tempest
Incanter's Ward


Glyphs:

Arcane Explosion
Slow
Ice Block


Reforging:
Build towards Haste until you reach around 15%. With Frost Armor, this will take it up to 23%. From there stack to crit, PvP Power, Intellect.
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90 Undead Mage
13010
From what I have seen, frost kicks it's !@# in damage in a battleground situation. While Dact is doing 15-20k dps with arcane, frost will be doing 30-40k dps and globalling players.
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90 Troll Mage
15140
STOP

DO NOT PASS GO

DO NOT COLLECT 200 CONQUEST POINTS

GO DIRECTLY TO FROST SPEC
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90 Troll Death Knight
9235
It can work if you're not being focused. Dact shows videos where he isn't, conveniently. But, most players will peg you after a few encounters and just focus/global you where you have little defense.

Then you have 'people' like Xiun who will tell you to go frost regardless: not bothering to try out anything else but the FotM(Y) spec.

Both fairly biased.

If you're going to do random BGs, why not give arcane a shot. If you're finding that you are dying a lot, switch over to frost and see how that works for you. Frost stresses control (especially to new players) where as arcane stresses burst.
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90 Undead Mage
13010
Frost stresses control (especially to new players) where as arcane stresses burst.


Frost IS control and burst, arcane has nowhere near as much burst damage in terms of 100 to 0 damage spikes and start of fight till end. The video's don't show the ramp up time, and then if they don't die after your final barrage then you're stuck with all your spells doing little damage again and you're probably screwed at this point.

You don't necessarily need to try out every spec in pvp to know if it's good or not. I have tried arcane in a bg and yes I did top in damage/kills but I still can do better with frost and I knew that would be the case before I tried it.

You also forget that in a pve scenario, frost and arcane are very close in damage but frost gets very little benefit from shatter/mastery to do that damage. In pvp you do get the full effect from shatter/mastery and you can use shatter much more often than arcane ever could thanks to a water elemental.
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90 Worgen Mage
7865
04/13/2013 02:20 AMPosted by Niflhel
It can work if you're not being focused. Dact shows videos where he isn't, conveniently. But, most players will peg you after a few encounters and just focus/global you where you have little defense.

Here's the catch - they don't ever peg me down. That's why I'm able to burst so often. If you're getting trained then there's something wrong with your positioning .. it hasn't anything to do with the spec.

04/13/2013 02:20 AMPosted by Niflhel
Both fairly biased.
With the exception that I play Frost from time to time as well, whereas Xiun doesn't play Arcane.

If you're going to do random BGs, why not give arcane a shot. If you're finding that you are dying a lot, switch over to frost and see how that works for you. Frost stresses control (especially to new players) where as arcane stresses burst.

If you're dying a lot it means you need to learn more about positioning and how Arcane works in PvP.

04/13/2013 02:55 AMPosted by Abracadaver
Frost IS control and burst, arcane has nowhere near as much burst damage in terms of 100 to 0 damage spikes and start of fight till end. The video's don't show the ramp up time, and then if they don't die after your final barrage then you're stuck with all your spells doing little damage again and you're probably screwed at this point.
The ramp up time is 6-seconds. That's all the time I need to get to 4-stacks.

In terms of reliability and damage in a burst, I found that Arcane wins over Frost. Arcane doesn't need to rely on Deep Freeze, or uses a big visual Orb which everyone can see and respond to, or relies on procs during the burst process. I simply pop my CDs and let em rip, with crits dealing as much as 160k as shown in the vid.

Whereas Frost relies on the Orb and Deep Freeze. DF can be dispelled and trinketed, and the Frost Orb is only as effective as the amount of hits it lands on a target in order to proc Fingers of Frost.

04/13/2013 02:55 AMPosted by Abracadaver
You don't necessarily need to try out every spec in pvp to know if it's good or not. I have tried arcane in a bg and yes I did top in damage/kills but I still can do better with frost and I knew that would be the case before I tried it.

Then Frost is a spec you're more attuned to. It doesn't mean Arcane isn't viable.

You also forget that in a pve scenario, frost and arcane are very close in damage but frost gets very little benefit from shatter/mastery to do that damage. In pvp you do get the full effect from shatter/mastery and you can use shatter much more often than arcane ever could thanks to a water elemental.

Arcane doesn't need to rely on Shatter to deal damage.. yet Arcane deals more from a Shatter crit then Frost. Best of both worlds IMO ;)
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90 Undead Mage
13010
You don't need deep freeze to do big shatter damage with frost at all, I generally use it more as a CC ability. It only requires one frost nova/pet freeze/tier 3 talent freeze to get off a triple shatter (up to 380K damage instantly on a player + frozen orb damage). Although arcane can do it (with a 4 stack arcane blast, frost bomb and arcane barrage) it's just easier and more reliable to pull off with frost using the pet freeze.
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90 Troll Death Knight
9235
04/13/2013 02:55 AMPosted by Abracadaver
Frost IS control and burst, arcane has nowhere near as much burst damage in terms of 100 to 0 damage spikes and start of fight till end. The video's don't show the ramp up time, and then if they don't die after your final barrage then you're stuck with all your spells doing little damage again and you're probably screwed at this point.


Go ahead and peruse the first couple pages of these forums. What do you see? Complaints about lack of burst from frost in PVP (with complaints about fire burst being gutted).

Even a patron frost mage in this thread has replied to some of those stating this to be the case.

You don't necessarily need to try out every spec in pvp to know if it's good or not. I have tried arcane in a bg and yes I did top in damage/kills but I still can do better with frost and I knew that would be the case before I tried it.


"My theory is valid because I say it is. No experimental procedures necessary."

You also forget that in a pve scenario, frost and arcane are very close in damage


lol
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90 Undead Mage
13010

Go ahead and peruse the first couple pages of these forums. What do you see? Complaints about lack of burst from frost in PVP (with complaints about fire burst being gutted).


I stopped taking anything you said seriously after the words "frost" and "lack of burst".
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90 Worgen Mage
7865
You don't need deep freeze to do big shatter damage with frost at all, I generally use it more as a CC ability. It only requires one frost nova/pet freeze/tier 3 talent freeze to get off a triple shatter (up to 380K damage instantly on a player + frozen orb damage). Although arcane can do it (with a 4 stack arcane blast, frost bomb and arcane barrage) it's just easier and more reliable to pull off with frost using the pet freeze.

Noted the Orb you mentioned there. That's part of the Frost Mage burst.

Only 380k eh from an Orb + Nova / Pet Freeze ?

heh .. 400k would be my minimum as Arcane in one half of my burst.

The only advantage with Frost is that the burst is instant.. which is necessary in the likes of a Duel or Arena, but in a BG the time an Arcane needs to build stacks is fine.
Edited by Dactylion on 4/13/2013 4:29 AM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
13010
heh .. 400k would be my minimum as Arcane in one half of my burst.

Dare to explain how you deal 400K as arcane instantly on a player with ~60% resil without using deep freeze? (as in 1 global). If that were the case arcane would be rampaging monsters in battlegrounds 1 shotting everyone. That 380K doesn't include the following ability frost has (100% frostfirebolt) plus any remaining FoF ice lances.
Edited by Abracadaver on 4/13/2013 4:33 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Mage
7865
04/13/2013 04:32 AMPosted by Abracadaver
heh .. 400k would be my minimum as Arcane in one half of my burst.

Dare to explain how you deal 400K as arcane instantly on a player with ~60% resil without using deep freeze? (as in 1 global). If that were the case arcane would be rampaging monsters in battlegrounds 1 shotting everyone. That 380K doesn't include the following ability frost has (100% frostfirebolt) plus any remaining FoF ice lances.

I never said the Arcane burst was instant, or even a one-shot. I did say that having an instant burst-on-hand was an advantage that Frost has.

In my video, I bursted on a Monk (Dâmaja) who has 66.71% resilience. I dealt around 232k damage with my Missiles, and a 162k crit with Barrage.
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90 Undead Mage
13010
http://oi47.tinypic.com/8yt6kx.jpg (from http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8568399003)

http://i.imgur.com/smhPTGh.jpg (overall damage/dps)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsschA41RXc (last season, play style has changed a bit but you get the idea)

Do that with arcane.
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90 Undead Mage
10825
There is a massive amount of misinformation, both deliberate and unintended going on in this thread. It bothers me that on the mage forums, so many people are bothering to spread poor information around like this that's almost entirely colored by subjective nonsense and people who, "Did something in a BG once."

Can you PvP as Arcane?

Absolutely. It can even be a lot of fun, for reasons I'll explain in a moment.

Is it as strong as Frost in competitive, casual and world PvP?

No. It's not.

Frost is high burst (To the point where MANY players think it's broken and, even I can admit, it's pretty close to the line between real strong and real OP), high mobility, high survivability because of the pet nova and Fingers of Frost Deep Freeze. It has, more than ever, the ability to be high, constant, damage with spikes of burst (Nether Tempest) or it has the ability to do 60-80% of a player's healthar in a split second with proper timing (Frost Bomb).

Frost Mages, currently, have no weaknesses other than the fact that, yes, they are still able to be killed. They have tons of synergy with basically every class and can drop more instant, raged CC than anyone except for Hunters because of FoF Deep Freeze, + PoM Poly/Ring + Counterspell.

Frost Mages are good. You should be frost unless there is a VERY, VERY specific reason not to be playing Frost (Or you just don't like Frost. That's always cool.)

On the other hand, Arcane has some serious issues:

The damage, with unstacked Arcane Blasts, is poor.

It has one instant that is relatively weak without Arcane Blast buffing.

The arcane school is and always has been a rough school to get locked out of. If you eat a Counterspell/Kick into an Arcane Blast, you lose the ability to Blink, CC and do damage. It effectively guts your class. Frost, by comparison, gets kicked on a cast and they just go straight to either CC'ing with Arcane or damage with Frost. Rarely get locked from both options.

The Arcane mastery is nice, but it's GUTTED by the current form of Spellsteal and Spellsteal is an amazing PvP ability. I mean, Spellsteal might as well say, "When used as an Arcane Mage, you deal 5% less damage until you Evocate. Stacks up to Forever." Where a Frost Mage can still use it when required, an arcane must always weigh the long term negatives of having their mana dropped by over 20%.

To be honest, the only time Arcane shines at all as a spec is against players much worse than you in a team fight scenario. Of course, in that scenario, ALL specs shine... Because you're better than the other team.

Arcane can drop tremendous damage over 10 seconds. Which would be fine if players were raid bosses. But they're not. Dactylion would have you drool over his 400k damage after 10 seconds of casting. That's great. It took him somewhere between 9 and 12 seconds to kill a player.

Of course, I can drop a Frost Bomb, Frozen Orb, a few instants and kill the player in 5-7. Which means he's dead. Last time I checked, that's what matters. Of course, I also did about 600k more damage via Cleave. And my damage isn't any lower, unlike Dact's.

Because I can just Frost bomb the next target and do EQUAL damage, without having to stack anything up. Arcane is awful if their Arcane Barrage doesn't land a kill.

Arcane is fine. It's hilarious running around, Nether Tempest everything (It does a ton more damage as Arcane rather than Frost because of the Mastery.) using Abarr and trolling melee with Slow kiting. You can also have a lot of fun as an artillery platform.

But just remember this:

Frost will do more damage. By 20-40% on average.

Frost will get FAR more Killing Blows. This is a bit more flexible, and obviously depends on a TON of factors, but, in general, I find it to be very true.

Arcane heavily diminishes your ability to carry a team. If you're focused, your damage sucks. If your team is not doing well, you will be focused. If the other team is competent, you will be focused. If they have ONE DKs or Rogue or Feral or Warriors who's ever been above 1600 in arena, you will be focused all game by that player.

Play Frost. Unless you really want to play Arcane. But, if you do, don't try to use logic to explain why. Because logic says Frost.
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90 Worgen Mage
7865
04/13/2013 05:23 AMPosted by Abracadaver
http://oi47.tinypic.com/8yt6kx.jpg

Nice :)

Here's my combat log.. blowing up two players in a single Arcane Burst..
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb53/sacrednic/ArcaneCombatLog02.jpg

04/13/2013 05:23 AMPosted by Abracadaver
http://i.imgur.com/smhPTGh.jpg (overall damage/dps)

haha that looked to be a fun match.

Though low mmr is pretty much the same as a random BG sorry to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsschA41RXc (last season, play style has changed a bit but you get the idea)

Do that with arcane.

lol I can use Frost Bomb as well ya know ;)
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90 Undead Mage
10825
Frost Bomb sucks for Arcane.

Of course, arcane sucks in general. =)
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90 Undead Mage
13010
Yeah we do kinda get a boost in damage to frost bomb for shatters, 45.79% or 55.79% buffed for me. Plus it works well at providing consistent frostfire bolt procs to set up burst damage. Nether tempest is surely a much better choice for arcane.
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90 Worgen Mage
7865
04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
Frost Mages are good. You should be frost unless there is a VERY, VERY specific reason not to be playing Frost (Or you just don't like Frost. That's always cool.)

I don't like playing Frost because of the gameplay style and lack of high-crits that only Arcane can deal.

I have never had or seen a Frost Mage deal 160k+ crits on another player from Frostfire Bolt, Ice Lance, or Frostbolt.

I have never seen a Frost Mage regularly blow up two players in a single burst. I'm not saying it can't happen - it just doesn't happen very often, and it happens because the players were too stupid to avoid a massive flying blue orb.

These are things I regularly experience with Arcane.. hence my love of it.

On the other hand, Arcane has some serious issues:

The damage, with unstacked Arcane Blasts, is poor.
It has one instant that is relatively weak without Arcane Blast buffing.

That's like saying Frost has 'serious issues' because Ice Lance is poor outside of a FoF.

04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
The arcane school is and always has been a rough school to get locked out of. If you eat a Counterspell/Kick into an Arcane Blast, you lose the ability to Blink, CC and do damage.

Wrong. They can use Fire and Frost spells.. just as Frost can use Arcane and Fire.

04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
The Arcane mastery is nice, but it's GUTTED by the current form of Spellsteal and Spellsteal is an amazing PvP ability. I mean, Spellsteal might as well say, "When used as an Arcane Mage, you deal 5% less damage until you Evocate. Stacks up to Forever." Where a Frost Mage can still use it when required, an arcane must always weigh the long term negatives of having their mana dropped by over 20%.

If an Arcane Mage has issues with mana then he needs to spend more time learning how to play.

I spam Spellsteal when needed, with no effect to my ability to continue casting afterward.

04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
To be honest, the only time Arcane shines at all as a spec is against players much worse than you in a team fight scenario. Of course, in that scenario, ALL specs shine... Because you're better than the other team.

This is a biased argument founded on what appears to be a lack of understanding of how Arcane is played in PvP.

04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
Arcane can drop tremendous damage over 10 seconds. Which would be fine if players were raid bosses. But they're not. Dactylion would have you drool over his 400k damage after 10 seconds of casting. That's great. It took him somewhere between 9 and 12 seconds to kill a player.

400k in 10-secs? Re-watch the video please. I deal close to twice that amount in the same time-frame.

04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
Of course, I can drop a Frost Bomb, Frozen Orb, a few instants and kill the player in 5-7. Which means he's dead. Last time I checked, that's what matters. Of course, I also did about 600k more damage via Cleave. And my damage isn't any lower, unlike Dact's.

Provided that other players were bad enough to stand in the path of the Orb. Most 1800+ comps I play in see the Orb and get the hell away from it. The Frost Mage should be CC'd at that point to minimize his burst potential.

04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
Because I can just Frost bomb the next target and do EQUAL damage, without having to stack anything up. Arcane is awful if their Arcane Barrage doesn't land a kill.

The same goes for FoF or Brain Freeze.. or any other form of spell or ability you care to name.

04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
Arcane is fine. It's hilarious running around, Nether Tempest everything (It does a ton more damage as Arcane rather than Frost because of the Mastery.)

The fact that you mention Mastery for Arcane PvP shows a very little understanding of it.

But just remember this:

Frost will do more damage. By 20-40% on average.

Frost will get FAR more Killing Blows. This is a bit more flexible, and obviously depends on a TON of factors, but, in general, I find it to be very true.

Not from my experience.

04/13/2013 05:32 AMPosted by Banaritaz
If your team is not doing well, you will be focused. If the other team is competent, you will be focused. If they have ONE DKs or Rogue or Feral or Warriors who's ever been above 1600 in arena, you will be focused all game by that player.

If you're being focused you can use it to your advantage. Make them over-extend then blow them up. If you don't know how to manage DKs and Rogues as Arcane, then the spec obviously isn't for you.

Sure, I've had the odd DK sit on me in RBGs. They either end up dead because they've had to over-extend and then eat my burst, or they retreat (and on occasion pulled out by their Priest).

Play Frost. Unless you really want to play Arcane. But, if you do, don't try to use logic to explain why. Because logic says Frost.

Play whatever you're attuned to and get the most enjoyment from. Arcane is fine.
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90 Undead Mage
10825
Arcane is not fine.

I hate quote stacking -_-

And you, sir, should spend some time picking apart your own spec and play style. You blatantly ignored a few huge flaws in your logic, "If you see a Frost Mage launch Orb, just CC him."

Yeah. No kidding? Except that where the Frost Mage generates instant casts constantly, Arcane does not. The whole issue is that 80% of the game, as arcane, against competent players, your damage is limited to Nether Tempest, Arcane Barrage and Fire Blast.

The Spellsteal thing has nothing to do with ability to cast. it has everything to do with reducing the usefulness of your Mastery, aka, your damage. You didn't even address that issue. And, no, you cannot use Spellsteal without far harsher problems than Frost.

Oh. you made a DK over extend as Arcane? Cool. So did I. Except I was still dealing damage.

What part of "Nether Tempest does more damage was Arcane than as Frost" blows your mind? Are you trolling? Ignorance? What? It's in the tooltip. Spells do more damage as Arcane than as Frost. Pretty much end of story here. It's not a question of playstyle, gearing or choice. THEY. JUST. DO.

I don't watch videos of Arcane Mages in BGs because it's always the same, it's always boring and it's always in totally unrealistic situations that don't exist for good players. You'll never get off more than 1-2 ABs in a "real" PvP setting.

No, no other mage ability cuts your damage after use. If my Ice Lance doesn't get a kill, my next one still can. Or the FFB. Or whatever. If your Abarr doesn't do it, your damage is gimped on the next one. This is obvious. Still suspecting trolling here.

EDIT: Just because you haven't seen a Frost Mage do something doesn't mean it's not entirely possible. But in the duration of a single trinket/Icy veins combo, I expect to land 2-3 kills in the average BG. Greatly depends on skill/gear. I can land more, or less. The other day I landed 8 KBs in under 30 seconds in an AB.

Ever done that as Arcane?
Edited by Banaritaz on 4/13/2013 6:44 AM PDT
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