Land ownership in the wake of SoO

90 Troll Warrior
13875
I often hear alliance members arguing over what land they should gain after SoO, it ranges from all the contested land in Azeroth as you so soundly beat us, to just Lodaeron or more reasonable claims that could work in game.

What do you think you have rights to?


I think it comes down to resources more than anything else. Horde needs lumber thats why they went to ashenvale. For the horde to withdraw there needs to be a new source of lumber either the alliance can ship in lumber for the horde to trade for (with the agreement it will not be used in the contruction of engines of war) or the horde remain entrenched in Ashenvale.

Its not just about giving up land its about the resources on that land. If the Alliance desn't offer good enough terms/treaties for the horde to surrender the land then they will fight for it and chaos will remain on Azeroth.

Even with agreeable terms you will always have the dissenters and dogs of war who will pursue their own agenda and jeopardize the relations between the two factions. A unified Azeroth (like the might of kalimdor) is always interesting hopefully this is where they take wow next xpac.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
I think it comes down to resources more than anything else. Horde needs lumber thats why they went to ashenvale. For the horde to withdraw there needs to be a new source of lumber either the alliance can ship in lumber for the horde to trade for (with the agreement it will not be used in the contruction of engines of war) or the horde remain entrenched in Ashenvale.

Its not just about giving up land its about the resources on that land. If the Alliance desn't offer good enough terms/treaties for the horde to surrender the land then they will fight for it and chaos will remain on Azeroth.


Uh. So it is again 'give us what we want or we'll take ' for the Horde? If the Horde wasn't always at war and would change it's warmongering and battle glorying culture, it wouldn't NEED to try and take what it feels it needs. Ashenvale, Gilneas and Arathi are obvious Alliance land. The Horde shouldn't have -any- presence in those zones at all after MoP. To accept a Horde presence in those zones would and should not be acceptable to the Alliance at all. The Horde is the one that started this war, it should accept the consequences of it in a way that is NOT detrimental to the Alliance (as in the Horde maintaining a presence in Alliance homelands.
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90 Troll Warrior
13875
04/18/2013 05:45 PMPosted by Kynrind
Uh. So it is again 'give us what we want or we'll take ' for the Horde? If the Horde wasn't always at war and would change it's warmongering and battle glorying culture, it wouldn't NEED to try and take what it feels it needs.


So if all the orcs would kindly go back into slavery and internment camps all would be well?

Ashenvale, Gilneas and Arathi are obvious Alliance land. The Horde shouldn't have -any- presence in those zones at all after MoP. To accept a Horde presence in those zones would and should not be acceptable to the Alliance at all. The Horde is the one that started this war, it should accept the consequences of it in a way that is NOT detrimental to the Alliance (as in the Horde maintaining a presence in Alliance homelands.


If it were not for the horde coming to Durotar, setting up camp and entrenching themselves the legion would have taken all of Azeroth. The Alliance was too busy squabbling within it self to effectively lead and manage Azeroth affairs.

The horde have earned their place in Azeroth, how and where is something that must be negotiated but trying to dish out table scraps will be met with hostility.

As to the question of ownership, if the forsaken was to raise the rightful owners of former Alliance held land, does that land then transition to the horde? They are still the same people in undeath as they were in life. How do you reconsile that?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
As to the question of ownership, if the forsaken was to raise the rightful owners of former Alliance held land, does that land then transition to the horde? They are still the same people in undeath as they were in life. How do you reconsile that?


Well.

Time-bomb activated.
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Well.

Time-bomb activated.


Legality isn't an issue, It's a might is right issue out there.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
They are still the same people in undeath as they were in life. How do you reconsile that?


They aren't the same people they were in life.
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90 Gnome Mage
19145
I often hear alliance members arguing over what land they should gain after SoO, it ranges from all the contested land in Azeroth as you so soundly beat us, to just Lodaeron or more reasonable claims that could work in game.

What do you think you have rights to?


Complete withdrawal of Horde forces from Ashenvale. Withdrawal of forces along the Gilnean wall. Withdrawal of military troops from the assault base overlooking the base next to the former side of the druid school (to allow the Alliance to rebuild there.) Hillsbred foothills to set the southern most Horde boarder for the Northern Eastern Kingdoms equal to the northern guard tower (basically the road that runs through the zone). Complete Horde withdrawal from Tol Barad. Greater area of Dustwallow and a withdrawal of troops from around Northwatch.

I would say that is a good minimum.
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90 Human Paladin
10470
I believe we have the right to:

Ashenvale, in total. Ashenvale is night elf territory and has always been, the fact that the Horde moved in during WCIII and refused to leave does not give them a rightful claim.

Gilneas, in total. This is obvious, Gilneas is a sovereign Alliance kingdom and the Forsaken have no claim on an inch of soil past the greymane wall, they just took it.

The portion of the Hillsbrad foothills that was ours prior to Cataclysm. As far as Alterac and Silverpine go, the Forsaken can have it, though any citizens of Dalaran that still live there should retain their lands and be left in peace.

As much territory in Arathi Highlands as the surviving human claimants to Stromgarde can populate, including the capitol city in total.

As much territory in Western Plaguelands as the surviving human claimants to Lordaeron can populate.

A treaty signed stating that the Alliance acknowledges the Forsaken as people with the right to own land, however also containing a promise that the Forsaken shall desist all forcible conversion, and if and when they die out naturally over time, all territories north of the Thandol Span formerly held by deceased Forsaken shall pass to their living human relations.

This is what I believe the Alliance is entitled to, in total.
Edited by Dierle on 4/18/2013 8:52 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
12020
Ashenvale, in total. Ashenvale is night elf territory and has always been, the fact that the Horde moved in during WCIII and refused to leave does not give them a rightful claim.

Yours.

Gilneas, in total. This is obvious, Gilneas is a sovereign Alliance kingdom and the Forsaken have no claim on an inch of soil past the greymane wall, they just took it.

Yours. Blame Garrosh.

The portion of the Hillsbrad foothills that was ours prior to Cataclysm. As far as Alterac and Silverpine go, the Forsaken can have it, though any citizens of Dalaran that still live there should retain their lands and be left in peace.

Ours to the Thoradin wall. You have nothing there left. Dalaran is a floating Alliance city, why would we allow an enemy with multiple WMD's to move onto our doorstep?

As much territory in Arathi Highlands as the surviving human claimants to Stromgarde can populate, including the capitol city in total.

Yours. Deal the the Orcs from Hammerfall however you want.

As much territory in Western Plaguelands as the surviving human claimants to Lordaeron can populate.

Yours. Most will just team up with the Argent Crusade as they seem to "own" the land.

A treaty signed stating that the Alliance acknowledges the Forsaken as people with the right to own land, however also containing a promise that the Forsaken shall desist all forcible conversion, and if and when they die out naturally over time, all territories north of the Thandol Span formerly held by deceased Forsaken shall pass to their living human relations.

This will never happen in a million years. On either side.
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90 Human Paladin
10470
I think we still have some Dalaran people living in Alterac and Silverpine who've been there from the beginning, do you propose they should be forcibly evicted from the lands that were always theirs Curvis?

I also don't see why you won't cede us back Southshore, Hillsbrad fields, and the associated territories. I mean, I admit, they're a little icky after you poured blight all over the place, but I'm sure our paladins and the argent crusade can do something about that. I mean, I'd take a treaty wherin we just draw a line at the Thoradin wall and move our people on one side and yours on the other, but I'm hesitant to ask the orcs to give up their settlements and farmland in their half of Arathi, I doubt they'd go for that and frankly the orcs need territory they can farm to feed themselves, because if they don't have a sustainable economy, we're just gonna see another war, and they can't do much with the blighted lands in Hillsbrad, so it seems like the divide you're suggesting is good for Forsaken, okay for humans, but kinda blows for orcs, and in this case they didn't actually do anything to deserve it.

As for a treaty regarding what will happen when the forsaken die off...why SHOULDN'T this happen? Sylvanas only wants to make more and more Forsaken as a bulwark to keep herself alive forever, I refuse to accept the deaths of thousands of Alliance citizens for one person's mad quest for immortality. If she's so afraid of going to hell she should go talk to Tirion about redemption. Other than that...what do the Forsaken really have to gain from perpetuating undeath? I mean, I understand the desire to build a family and procreate, but to simply assimilate, to make more like you simply because they're like you even though you have no sense of family or connection to them? That's the scourge, that's the zerg, that has no place, and what's even the point of it? Just to hold that territory in perpetuity for the Horde? Why?
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90 Troll Hunter
10125
04/18/2013 07:18 PMPosted by Vyrin
They are still the same people in undeath as they were in life. How do you reconsile that?


They aren't the same people they were in life.


If the Horde and it's races where removed from being playable would you shut up?
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
Uh. So it is again 'give us what we want or we'll take ' for the Horde? If the Horde wasn't always at war and would change it's warmongering and battle glorying culture, it wouldn't NEED to try and take what it feels it needs.


So if all the orcs would kindly go back into slavery and internment camps all would be well?


If the Horde would stop !@#$ing with their neighbors and learn to solve their economic problems by not using force to take what they want. What the Alliance wants the most from the Horde is for them to LEAVE THE ALLIANCE ALONE. To stop constantly encroaching on Alliance land and territory and to stop killing Alliance soldiers and citizens.

[quote]Ashenvale, Gilneas and Arathi are obvious Alliance land. The Horde shouldn't have -any- presence in those zones at all after MoP. To accept a Horde presence in those zones would and should not be acceptable to the Alliance at all. The Horde is the one that started this war, it should accept the consequences of it in a way that is NOT detrimental to the Alliance (as in the Horde maintaining a presence in Alliance homelands.


If it were not for the horde coming to Durotar, setting up camp and entrenching themselves the legion would have taken all of Azeroth. The Alliance was too busy squabbling within it self to effectively lead and manage Azeroth affairs.

The horde have earned their place in Azeroth, how and where is something that must be negotiated but trying to dish out table scraps will be met with hostility.

As to the question of ownership, if the forsaken was to raise the rightful owners of former Alliance held land, does that land then transition to the horde? They are still the same people in undeath as they were in life. How do you reconsile that?


Will you please stop using that BS excuse of 'the Horde was necessary to save Azeroth'? The Horde didn't do it to save Azeroth for anyone. They did it to save their own personal hides. Nothing more. There was no 'we did it to save the world' or 'for nature' or 'It's the right thing to do'. They did it for one reason and one reason only. To save their asses from Legion destruction. Nothing more.

Still, they did help save the world. Yay, good for them. but the first thing that happens after that? Thrall sends the Warsong back into Ashenvale, which he knew by then was Kaldorei territory. He let the forsaken run wild and create a bio-plague through torturous experimentation on living subjects. T

here's plenty of land unclaimed by the Alliance they could have set up shop in. Or they could have developed their own resources better and all (an old argument, but you get the idea, yes?). Helping save the world does NOT give the Horde any claim to Alliance land or resources. no more than the Alliance helping save the world gives the Alliance the right to set up mining camps, colonies and logging operations on Horde land. if the story had the Alliance doing that, Horde players would be rightfully calling BS on that.

I know at least one horde player hear was advocating that the orcs have a right to Ashenvale as payment for their helping to save the world in Hyjal. He's adamant about that even when it's pointed out that -no- other race that was there has demanded any payment at all from any of the pother races for Hyjal. His position is stupid, biased and a huge double standard, yet he maintains that it's only right and proper that the orcs get what they need from the Kaldorei and that the Kaldorei are all in the wrong for denying those resources to the orcs who d3esperately need them.
Edited by Kynrind on 4/19/2013 6:41 AM PDT
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90 Troll Warrior
13875
04/18/2013 09:16 PMPosted by Dierle
Sylvanas only wants to make more and more Forsaken as a bulwark to keep herself alive forever, I refuse to accept the deaths of thousands of Alliance citizens for one person's mad quest for immortality.


If Sylvannis changed tactics and brainwashed the living into following/worshiping the forsaken as some sort of immortal cult, as a means to live forever and there were minorities that willingly embraced undeath, how does the Alliance deal with that (especially when its usually those that have the most to lose that fear death i.e the wealthy)?

04/18/2013 09:16 PMPosted by Dierle
I mean, I understand the desire to build a family and procreate, but to simply assimilate, to make more like you simply because they're like you even though you have no sense of family or connection to them?


Do you remember when the forsaken lost the undercity, they were terrified refugee's, begging for shelter/protection in Ogrimmar. They felt a deep sense of loss and misery akin to any race on azeroth at being forced from their homes. The forsaken were an offshoot from the scourge but as time goes on they display more and more emotion and connection to this world.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10995
They should just merge the factions and let people do whatever they want.

do want
Edited by Reignac on 4/18/2013 9:39 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
10470
Look, I accept the Forsaken as people, and if they can find a way to procreate and perpetuate their species on their own by magic, or if there are enough humans who want to become undead willingly as a means of prolonging their lives to perpetuate them, fine.

But as much as I may feel for their plight, no sane person can argue that it gives them the right to forcibly convert others, to kill people, revive them, then threaten to kill them again if they don't join them. That's barbaric, nobody has the right to do that to other people just to...I dunno, fill some emotional void in their hearts because they can't reproduce, anymore than a barren woman has the right to kidnap someone else's baby.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
As to the question of ownership, if the forsaken was to raise the rightful owners of former Alliance held land, does that land then transition to the horde? They are still the same people in undeath as they were in life. How do you reconsile that?


By killing the undead abominations that are the newly raised corpses. It would not be a legitimate claim recognized by anyone except the forsaken and they would have to back that claim up by heavy military force. the undead have shown themselves to be far harder and colder and a lot meaner than they were in life. Only a fool would trust the undead in large numbers.

If your idea was accepted, then the forsaken could theoretically find and raise the dead of Stormwind (there's a LOT of them from the First war in the ground) and under your idea, those new undead would have a more relevant claim on the land than those still living. Especially if they raised a few former monarchs. Is it realistic or even really possible? Not really. It's not a legal issue that any rational nation would allow to be applied.
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90 Troll Warrior
13875
If your idea was accepted, then the forsaken could theoretically find and raise the dead of Stormwind (there's a LOT of them from the First war in the ground) and under your idea, those new undead would have a more relevant claim on the land than those still living. Especially if they raised a few former monarchs. Is it realistic or even really possible? Not really. It's not a legal issue that any rational nation would allow to be applied.


Exactly right and what I was getting at so the Alliance would refuse their claims to land and forcibly take it from them/kill them where ever possible... how then do they decide who owns the land once the forsaken are gone? (the horde answer is whoever is left standing on it gets it), would the Alliance default to this stance as well?

No one thinks their opinion is wrong, this is why we have conflict.
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90 Orc Death Knight
3195
04/18/2013 09:48 PMPosted by Kynrind
As to the question of ownership, if the forsaken was to raise the rightful owners of former Alliance held land, does that land then transition to the horde? They are still the same people in undeath as they were in life. How do you reconsile that?


By killing the undead abominations that are the newly raised corpses. It would not be a legitimate claim recognized by anyone except the forsaken and they would have to back that claim up by heavy military force. the undead have shown themselves to be far harder and colder and a lot meaner than they were in life. Only a fool would trust the undead in large numbers.

If your idea was accepted, then the forsaken could theoretically find and raise the dead of Stormwind (there's a LOT of them from the First war in the ground) and under your idea, those new undead would have a more relevant claim on the land than those still living. Especially if they raised a few former monarchs. Is it realistic or even really possible? Not really. It's not a legal issue that any rational nation would allow to be applied.


The Warchief recognised their ownership of the land by allowing them to join as a member state of the horde. And the Warchief is one of most politically powerful entities in WoW. So it's as legit.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5420
The Warchief recognised their ownership of the land by allowing them to join as a member state of the horde. And the Warchief is one of most politically powerful entities in WoW. So it's as legit.


It's only legit on Lordaeron the kingdom. No where else. The forsaken 'claim' to Stromgarde isn't going to fly. The dead prince lost all claim to the throne and land when he was killed. Undeath does -not- give him a claim that the citizens of Stromgarde would recognize or accept unless it's literally forced down their throat by sword point. It's not going to fly with any other land either.
Edited by Kynrind on 4/18/2013 11:04 PM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
04/18/2013 11:01 PMPosted by Kynrind
It's only legit on Lordaeron the kingdom.


It's not even legit on that. The recognition of a green alien from across the sea doesn't legitimize the Forsaken's claim on an abstract, historical level. All it does is ensure that they have the force of arms to contest the Alliance from reclaiming it.

Even if you consider undeath to be a skin condition the Forsaken are still traitors who, under the leadership of a foreign usurper, murdered the humans of Lordaeron and stole their land in the name of that same foreigner. This is a process that continues today. You lose claim when you rampage across the countryside murdering your alleged countrymen after installing a foreign dictator with genocidal ambitions.

Particularly when the reason you're doing so is because you've been infected by an otherworldly, parasitic disease that warps your mind body and soul.
Edited by Vyrin on 4/19/2013 3:59 AM PDT
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