Shaman Stats, what is best?

90 Pandaren Shaman
10405
So I have been reading a lot of stuff lately trying to determine what would be the best way to go. In the past it was always the best way to eitheir go all one way or all another way. For example if you were going mastery stack mastery all day long, haste the same and so on and so forth. Now in Pandaria with all the absorbs in healing I have read how it makes our mastery kinda blah. It also may be the reason we are seeing the huge increase in our healing spells come 5.3. So what are you other shaman hearing? The latest I hear that may be good is mastery to 50% then haste or crit. If you're number cruncher I would love the input!
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10405
Excellent point on the healing wave glyph I just looked at my logs and I'm barely casting it. I'm going to try the totemic recall and I'm going to drop whats left of my haste then. Good stuff Kuwilei. Question talent wise at lvl 90 what is strongest in your experience? I'm trying priaml for another oh !@#$ cd but would the earthliving increase be more in the long run?
Edited by Dalistar on 4/20/2013 4:09 PM PDT
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
Now in Pandaria with all the absorbs in healing I have read how it makes our mastery kinda blah.


Only if you heal with both a paladin and disc and overheal. To me mastery is our best stat. On paper crit is a good stat, and theoretically it is but will it save your raid? No it won't.

Mastery on the other hand is there when you need it, if all you care about is meters than go crit. But if you want a reliable stat that can save someones life, I'd recommend mastery. The nice thing about Rshaman stats is you can go for any stat(Crit, Haste, and Mastery). On paper some may be better than others, but a mastery shaman can blow a crit shaman out of the water, a crit shaman can blow a mastery shaman, a haste shaman can blow both out of the water.

Pick a stat you're comfortable with, I advocate mastery because it's their when I need it and I've yet to have any problems or ever feeling inadequate.. I gave crit a chance, didn't like the flow and a spreadsheet will never tell me how to heal.
Edited by Sensations on 4/20/2013 4:32 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
6265
Get rid of all haste over 871(raid buff + AS) [441 goblins]. The major benefit of haste is the extra HST/HTT tick, WHICH is completely dependent on your latency to actually work. 871 is almost impossible to reforge out of.
edit: just to be clear, I have personally tested this to be true, err the latency part.

~50% mastery
spirit to comfort
crit.

Our stats this xpac are actually kinda lame. 50% mastery comes very quickly, then you just dump everything into crit. Tons of haste just laying around doing nothing significant.

If you must have haste or just want the breakpoints; (goblin)
2017(1576) = raid buff, for RT, HR
3039(2588) = raid buff, for RT, HR, ELW

871(441) = AS + raid buff, for RT, HR, ELW
3764(3306) = AS + raid buff, for RT,HR, ELW, & HST/HTT exrta tick [see disclaimer]

Not taking AS, going for 2017 haste, and taking elemental mastery, you will have all the extra ticks you want, on demand.
Edited by Foc on 4/20/2013 5:49 PM PDT
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
Our stats this xpac are actually kinda lame. 50% mastery comes very quickly, then you just dump everything into crit. Tons of haste just laying around doing nothing significant.


Why 50% mastery? What is the argument you have for 50% mastery and why stop there?
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90 Tauren Shaman
6265
Why 50% mastery? What is the argument you have for 50% mastery and why stop there?


It's just a round number, hence "~". How often are you healing people at or around dead? Often? get more mastery. Not often? don't.

On targets<47%hp mastery is better than everything for throughput. Really just copy/pasting from EJ. The arguments for secondary stats there are very clearly spelled out and explained.

If you can't possibly run out of mana, then sure go for 3764 haste>mastery>all else.
Edited by Foc on 4/20/2013 4:49 PM PDT
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
04/20/2013 04:38 PMPosted by Foc
Why 50% mastery? What is the argument you have for 50% mastery and why stop there?


It's just a round number, hence "~". How often are you healing people at or around dead? Often? get more mastery. Not often? don't.

On targets<47%hp mastery is better than everything for throughput. Really just copy/pasting from EJ. The arguments for secondary stats there are very clearly spelled out and explained.


Healing is not a spreadsheet though for a simple reason that healing is dynamic and not static. Their arguments don't mean much to me, I care more about why people blindly follow such and repeat it like it's the law of the land because of theoretical math in a dynamic environment.

Can you specifically tell the OP why you feel crit rating is better at a certain point based on experience? Why do you feel outside of math that crit rating servers your raid better than mastery.
Edited by Sensations on 4/20/2013 4:49 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Shaman
6265
Can you specifically tell the OP why you feel crit rating is better at a certain point based on experience? Why do you feel outside of math that crit rating servers your raid better than mastery.


I just said that "On targets<47%hp mastery is better than everything for throughput."

Take that for whatever you want it to.

Also

If you can't possibly run out of mana, then sure go for 3764 haste>mastery>all else.


I am not saying this is right or gtfo. Just providing information for the op to make his own decision on.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
I just said that "On targets<47%hp mastery is better than everything for throughput."

Take that for whatever you want it to.


Well you're telling the OP an example of what to go for, I am merely trying to understand from you why you feel it's a good thing by using experience(In any area) and not paper math/theories. I am truly curious as well as think it would help the OP more than anything.

Also why do you imply only crit has a mana value and mastery is a simple throughput stat? The direct increase of a heal has a mana saving value as well, albeit not as high as Crit but it's there. So who's to say he should go for that only if he has no mana problems?;o. Not to mention it's also hard to say considering mathematical theories are far from real scenarios, so on some fights mastery even has the potential to save more mana than crit(Since theories are used a lot ;)).
Edited by Sensations on 4/20/2013 4:58 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
04/20/2013 03:48 PMPosted by Dalistar
If you're number cruncher I would love the input!


Even after the number crunching, there won't be any significant differences pointing directly to any specific stat.

Often the stat to use is dependent on the encounter mechanics and your role in the encounter. But you can also safely stack a stat that you just prefer over the others.
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90 Tauren Shaman
6265
Op specifically asked about the numbers. My experience's this xpac are not great. I have no large pool of personal runs where I have reforged in and out of specific stats, to say for any personal certainty, for all intents and purposes, that I know x is better than y. My opinion is only that.

I can however take the math for exactly what it is. Pure unequivocal data. One doesn't make assumptions or follow blindly this type of data. One uses the information to make informed decisions. I am making an informed decision on how I distribute my stats, along with how I would recommend someone else distribute their stats.
Edited by Foc on 4/20/2013 5:15 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10405
Thanks Foc and Sensations, in my raid group I'm with 2 disc priest and 1 or 2 paladins so rarelydoes anyone get super low. Thats why I was questioning whether I should push mastery or haste. Plus I had seen some high end guilds with shaman stacking haste again.
Edited by Dalistar on 4/20/2013 5:59 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
15795
its all about the raid comp you are in... for example if your guild has 2 priests go with int/crit build

And totemic recall is very awesome glyph
Edited by Selendis on 4/20/2013 9:44 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
Sounds from your statement of "in my raid group I'm with 2 disc priest and 1 or 2 paladins" that you are raiding 25man.

Do not neglect Spirit in 25man. Your MTT is far more valuable in 25man for *multiple healers' throughput which would exceed any amount of throughput you personally would gain by trimming down Spirit for your own personal throughput gain* than it would be were you running 10man (where it would still be reasonably valuable if you were 3-healing 10man content).

Like it or not (I don't, personally), this is one of the many strengths a resto shaman brings to a raid's healing *team*. You can't possibly gear in a way to give yourself a throughput boost that will come close to the throughput boost you can give those multiple other healers by enabling all of *them* to drop Spirit due to the strength of your Spirit-centered build fuelling your MTT.

I don't believe it's... necessary; all I know is that it's an absolutely viable strategy which can strengthen an already strong 25man healing team, and it's a strategy you should factor into your considerations.

Also, elitistjerks gives all sorts of information you need in order to make your own decision re: Haste. It's absolutely true that totems are currently unreliable with Haste if you are expecting to get your extra ticks while sitting at or just over the Haste breakpoint. It is also absolutely true that if you overshoot the breakpoint by [an amount of Haste which is completely dependent on your own personal latency on a given realm, which you have to experiment & examine your logs to determine] you WILL get your extra ticks more reliably (I can't make a claim that you will ALWAYS get your extra ticks; all I know is that when I was gearing for the HST/HTT breakpoint - and overshooting it by 200-ish Haste - I got my extra ticks in every log I examined).

Moreover, certain Haste breakpoints are *not* affected by any such unreliability. Yes, 871 is one of them, but so is 5676 (for a total of 10 Riptide ticks) and 7613 (for a total of 9 Healing Rain ticks). You can sit at those breakpoints exactly and reliably get the extra ticks you've geared for (as well as be FAR overshooting the 10th HST tick and 9th HTT tick so you can rely on getting them too).

I'm not saying "this means every resto shaman should emphasize Haste". I'm simply saying YES - Haste is a huge annoyance in regards to totems atm, but it is still an excellent throughput stat now that we have enough itemization points to be able to reach some of the important breakpoints with ease, especially in a tier where there is so much movement (ie; extra fractions of a second can indeed mean you manage to squeeze a needed heal in before you have to move, beyond the extra ticks on HST/HTT/HR all of which are staples of any shaman's total healing done).

Moreover, T15 2pc increases the value of managing to get the extra HST ticks.

Finally, a Haste build doesn't mean you can't choose EM & PE, for any fight where you want to use them. It just means if you can float the 20.01% (+ "cushion") Haste needed for HST/HTT without AS, you'll be able to blast that much *more* healing through a PE/EM/Ascendance *eleven* tick Healing Rain, *ten* tick HTT (totems affected only by PE/EM of course), and *fifteen* tick HST (x 25% if you have 2pc T15). That is *insane* burst healing.

Feel absolutely free to decide that you're not comfortable with the Haste + totem problem, and devalue it. DON'T dismiss it out-of-hand as "not viable".

Finally, re: lvl 90 UF talent... if I'm understanding correctly that you're healing 25man content, you'll find less use for UF than a 10man shaman does. I'm sure situationally you might decide to use it, but unless you're doing a bunch of single-target healing, it's wasted.
Edited by Ellarix on 4/20/2013 10:37 PM PDT
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93 Goblin Shaman
8545
04/20/2013 04:38 PMPosted by Foc
Why 50% mastery? What is the argument you have for 50% mastery and why stop there?


It's just a round number, hence "~". How often are you healing people at or around dead? Often? get more mastery. Not often? don't.

On targets<47%hp mastery is better than everything for throughput. Really just copy/pasting from EJ. The arguments for secondary stats there are very clearly spelled out and explained.

If you can't possibly run out of mana, then sure go for 3764 haste>mastery>all else.


Our mastery works at 90% HP- it's worked like this since Cata. People do not need to be danged near dead in order to benefit from our mastery.

I look at mana saving techniques in a few different ways:

1) Resurgence- obviously
2) MTT
3) I always carry extra mana pots
4) Average raid dps
5) Throughput- ie mastery

Why average raid dps? Because dps reflects on how long the fight is going to last- if it's higher than average, that means having a ton of spirit isn't really needed. If the dps is about average, it's beneficial to stick with spirit.

So, in a way, a raid's dps also effects our mana management.

As far as mastery goes, since it's a throughput stat, that means I'm healing for a bit higher, which means I'm not casting as many heals, which translates into less mana I'm having to spend. Hopefully this makes sense.

As OP said, the problem a lot of shaman (and a couple of other classes) are running into are absorbs. Since absorbs are sucking up potential damage that means there's less to heal. That's normally where the 50% mastery then the crit and haste builds are coming from.

Just my thoughts.
Edited by Jujubiju on 4/20/2013 10:53 PM PDT
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17440
04/20/2013 10:53 PMPosted by Kuwilei
Can you specifically tell the OP why you feel crit rating is better at a certain point based on experience? Why do you feel outside of math that crit rating servers your raid better than mastery.

There has been an ongoing debate regarding Crit and Mastery. To simplify it, if your target has a higher amount of health, Crit is superior, and if they are lower on health, Mastery is superior.

Crit, however, is also a very good (really underestimated) mana regen tool. Many Shaman are starting to Reforge out of Spirit to Crit, and are having no mana issues, with more throughput.

So the answer is to some degree that it depends on your mana situation. A fresh 90 starved for mana will favor Crit, later on Mastery is more desirable, and to reiterate what I said earlier, it depends on the damage taken in said fight.

Specifically,

  • When the target is > 66.7% hp, Crit is better for all your direct heals.
  • When < 66.7% hp, Mastery is better for HR and CH, however Crit still wins for single target healing.
  • When target is < 46.7% hp, Mastery is better for everything.
  • This is before calculating the bonus you likely have from your Revitalizing Primal Diamond or Burning Primal Diamond, which means Crits will heal for 268%, up from 260% for spells that can proc Ancestral Awakening and for 206% up from 200% for spells that cannot, so with your diamond, the breakpoints change slightly in favor of Crit:

  • > 64.7% hp = Crit wins, period
  • < 64.7% hp = Mastery wins HR and CH
  • < 44% hp = Mastery wins, period


  • But you're speaking from a pure theoretical standpoint, and healing isn't about theory it's about practice.
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