Any 10-man priests give up on holy?

90 Pandaren Monk
4810
Not until Atonement is nerfed, Chakra is made "more fun" (please OH PLEASE make it a cooldown instead of a stance) and Holy has something that rivals the usefulness of Spirit Shell will I switch back. If I want to do the sustained AOEs, I heal on my Monk.
Edited by Ramayana on 4/22/2013 4:03 AM PDT
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90 Human Priest
6460
Most priests are Disc in 25s too, but the discrepancy isn't as big. About 73% are Disc in 25H, vs. 93% in 10H.


I just saw that kaels posted this and it's rather discouraging if it's true.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12595
04/22/2013 02:25 PMPosted by Pentance
Most priests are Disc in 25s too, but the discrepancy isn't as big. About 73% are Disc in 25H, vs. 93% in 10H.


I just saw that kaels posted this and it's rather discouraging if it's true.

It's true.
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/14/60/samples/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

Even 10N is kind of sad:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/14/60/samples/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

Now, Holy is not a bad spec, and I think it's underrated. But it's inescapably unpopular in 10s. It's awkward to play. Chakra isn't designed well for the current 10m healing environment. You can still perform, but I think a lot of priests are less motivated to bother with the spec in 10s because it's like a square peg in a round hole.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
You can still perform, but I think a lot of priests are less motivated to bother with the spec in 10s because it's like a square peg in a round hole.


Is Chakra: Serenity really that necessary in 10-mans? I understand that 10-man Holy Priests probably do slightly more single target tank healing, and having access to HW: Serenity while being able to refresh Renew for free on the tanks seems nice. I just wonder if it's worth giving up +25% healing to all your raid heals and level 90 talents, especially DI PoM which is amazing and highly underrated as a tank heal.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/22/2013 2:45 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12595
04/22/2013 02:43 PMPosted by Ceddya
You can still perform, but I think a lot of priests are less motivated to bother with the spec in 10s because it's like a square peg in a round hole.


Is Chakra: Serenity really that necessary in 10-mans? I understand that 10-man Holy Priests probably do slightly more single target tank healing, and having access to HW: Serenity while being able to refresh Renew for free on the tanks seems nice. I just wonder if it's worth giving up +25% healing to all your raid heals and level 90 talents, especially DI PoM which is highly underrated as a tank heal.

I don't personally feel like it's worth it. I was trying to use Serenity last night with essentially no success - it relies so heavily on Renew, which just doesn't work well with Atonement and shields in the raid. It gets one tick off on most targets, and I'm undergeared, so it's a pretty pathetic tick. (Our poor druid...)

So yes, I've been staying in Sanc and getting a whole lot of tank healing out of DI PoM. But it's...obnoxious, because I often actually do have to e.g. Flash/Binding Heal something, and the last thing I want in those situations is for the heal to be 20% weaker than it ought to be. Not having an instant ST heal, and having my HoT gimped, is also a little annoying.

I'm probably not the best person to ask because overall I'm just so overjoyed to be back on a holy priest after 6 months of torturing myself with a paladin. Nothing could possibly ever be more awkward than trying to raidheal on a paladin. That said, Chakra can be discouraging in a 10m setting.
Edited by Kaels on 4/22/2013 2:51 PM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
7425
[quote]

Is Chakra: Serenity really that necessary in 10-mans? I understand that 10-man Holy Priests probably do slightly more single target tank healing, and having access to HW: Serenity while being able to refresh Renew for free on the tanks seems nice. I just wonder if it's worth giving up +25% healing to all your raid heals and level 90 talents, especially DI PoM which is amazing and highly underrated as a tank heal.


Like all things, it depends on the comp.

I heal with a very good HPally. On fights where the raid is spread out, and people aren't in immediate danger of death, I'll sit in Serenity Chakra and toss out a lot of renews. Roll renews on the tanks, refresh with "heal", and spot heal with HW:Serenity.

I'll typically save Sanctuary Chakra for large sustained AoE. Otherwise, the extra throughput is often overheal.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9040
Is Chakra: Serenity really that necessary in 10-mans? I understand that 10-man Holy Priests probably do slightly more single target tank healing, and having access to HW: Serenity while being able to refresh Renew for free on the tanks seems nice. I just wonder if it's worth giving up +25% healing to all your raid heals and level 90 talents, especially DI PoM which is amazing and highly underrated as a tank heal.


Unfortunately in my experience: yes. Just did H tortos last week (finally) and 2healing it, even with our pally almost full-time tank healing I still had to make significant use of Gheal/Fheal. From what I've seen, this is true of most heroic modes. Holy's single target heals are expensive enough even in serenity...they are just terrible in Sanc. The thing I hate though, is this *strongly* encourages you to use/abuse renew rolling. Holy has arguably THE best spammable aoe in the game, and yet I have to renew roll because I cant afford to be caught out of serenity when tank burst damage hits. So frustrating.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Unfortunately in my experience: yes. Just did H tortos last week (finally) and 2healing it, even with our pally almost full-time tank healing I still had to make significant use of Gheal/Fheal. From what I've seen, this is true of most heroic modes. Holy's single target heals are expensive enough even in serenity...they are just terrible in Sanc. The thing I hate though, is this *strongly* encourages you to use/abuse renew rolling. Holy has arguably THE best spammable aoe in the game, and yet I have to renew roll because I cant afford to be caught out of serenity when tank burst damage hits. So frustrating.


Even with high usage of GHeals, wouldn't the +25% healing to DI PoM compensate for the smaller single target heals in Sanctuary? Then factor in the CD reduction to CoH and +25% healing to your raid heals, and Serenity doesn't seem that appealing.

I guess this also depends on how often you use Renew, but I just can't see an argument for high Renew usage regardless of bracket, as it does a lot of overhealing and doesn't scale with our Mastery.
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90 Human Priest
6460
04/22/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Mythrose
Is Chakra: Serenity really that necessary in 10-mans? I understand that 10-man Holy Priests probably do slightly more single target tank healing, and having access to HW: Serenity while being able to refresh Renew for free on the tanks seems nice. I just wonder if it's worth giving up +25% healing to all your raid heals and level 90 talents, especially DI PoM which is amazing and highly underrated as a tank heal.


Unfortunately in my experience: yes. Just did H tortos last week (finally) and 2healing it, even with our pally almost full-time tank healing I still had to make significant use of Gheal/Fheal. From what I've seen, this is true of most heroic modes. Holy's single target heals are expensive enough even in serenity...they are just terrible in Sanc. The thing I hate though, is this *strongly* encourages you to use/abuse renew rolling. Holy has arguably THE best spammable aoe in the game, and yet I have to renew roll because I cant afford to be caught out of serenity when tank burst damage hits. So frustrating.


This was the problem I'm seeing with holy.

You can get away with some stuff on normal but when you are 2 healing heroic fights on 10-man tanks are going to get wrecked and you'll need to stay in serenity. It seems like chakra is just really punishing to 10-man and has almost no effect on 25 since they will just stay in sanc all the time.
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90 Human Priest
6460
04/22/2013 03:11 PMPosted by Ceddya
Unfortunately in my experience: yes. Just did H tortos last week (finally) and 2healing it, even with our pally almost full-time tank healing I still had to make significant use of Gheal/Fheal. From what I've seen, this is true of most heroic modes. Holy's single target heals are expensive enough even in serenity...they are just terrible in Sanc. The thing I hate though, is this *strongly* encourages you to use/abuse renew rolling. Holy has arguably THE best spammable aoe in the game, and yet I have to renew roll because I cant afford to be caught out of serenity when tank burst damage hits. So frustrating.


Even with high usage of GHeals, wouldn't the +25% healing to DI PoM compensate for the smaller single target heals in Sanctuary? Then factor in the CD reduction to CoH and +25% healing to your raid heals, and Serenity doesn't seem that appealing.

I guess this also depends on how often you use Renew, but I just can't see an argument for high Renew usage regardless of bracket, as it does a lot of overhealing and doesn't scale with our Mastery.


Not really. When you need to tank heal you need fast/strong heals and DI PoM takes awhile to bounce. There are also situations where there is no one in range for PoM to bounce to, you can't get a proc (40% RNG yay), and occasionally it ends up going out of jumping distance of the tank (not usually). The 25% hit to single target heals and the loss of HW:serenity is pretty large unless your co-healer is managing to do like 80%+ of the tank healing.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9040
Even with high usage of GHeals, wouldn't the +25% healing to DI PoM compensate for the smaller single target heals in Sanctuary? Then factor in the CD reduction to CoH and +25% healing to your raid heals, and Serenity doesn't seem that appealing.

Are you talking overall healing, or tank healing? If the former, then yes, sanc does absolutely make up for it. Problem is 2healing 10man, damage patterns just don't play nice with sanc. My raid output is close to irrelevant if I don't have the single target burst to help keep tanks alive without lighting my mana on fire, which is how it feels in sanc. Unloading tank healing onto my cohealer is not really feasible either imo, although it's true my experience as holy in heroic progression is limited.
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100 Human Priest
20115
I wish I could raid as holy. However, I raid in a 10 man and find that Chakra is far too limiting. If you have a situation where you only need to use half of your toolkit, then you can play holy (aoe chakra). Or you can play holy with rolling renews geared to specific haste breakpoints (single target chakra doing your aoe healing like a druid).

If you use the aoe chakra, mastery is a good stat. If you use the single target chakra for aoe healing (via renew), then mastery is a very bad stat. Switching chakra states requires a complete regearing not just a "stance swap".

Therefore, I heal as discipline with the occasional holy fight. Very occasional. We are 11/12N (hoping for 12 tonight - had some maternity leave in raid), and I only use my holy spec for Tortos (I heal with a resto shaman who doesn't do spread aoe healing). Tortos involves too much running for disc to get all of the aoe healing. I use gear set with the haste for the first lightspring breakpoint and then the mastery/crit balance of my discipline gear. I sit in the aoe Chakra and consider my contribution to tank healing to be bouncing my PoM off of the tank.

I wish I could raid as holy more. However, the effort involved in trying to be a good healing while getting around what can only be a deliberately designed limitation (chakra) is far too much when I can generally get the same results with less convolution as discipline. Holy has one of the most fun spell interactions in the game (serendipity); however, using it for prayer of healing requires that one of the spells (either the flash/binding heal or the prayer of healing) be used in the wrong state. Holy just doesn't seem to like itself very much, and holy really has a vendetta against 10 man raiding.
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90 Undead Priest
7425

If you use the aoe chakra, mastery is a good stat. If you use the single target chakra for aoe healing (via renew), then mastery is a very bad stat. Switching chakra states requires a complete regearing not just a "stance swap"


Interesting point.

Why not reforge for crit? ALL our spells can crit. Doesn't EoL benefit from crit too?
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90 Human Priest
10975
I raid 10m exclusively as holy this tier, and have only been disc for one of our heroic kills. I love it, and it's been my preferred spec since vanilla. We do raid with 3 healers, but I feel like a lot of our fights could comfortably be healed with 2.

Mana is still something that I have to watch. However with better gear, and this ungodly meta I won't say that mana is no longer an issue, but it's been a lot easier to manage and has opened up some different stats choices. Such as indulging in my love for crit as holy this tier without having my spirit suffer.


Why crit for holy?


- I like the burst healing. Mastery is (at least in our setup) normally results in massive overhealing, and if I'm going to be over healing uncontrollably I'd prefer it be in the form of a big heal rather than a small hot.
- I rarely use renew and its breakpoint has never been a goal I've actively attempted to reach. Haste is secondary after crit for the sole purpose of pumping out hard casts at a comfortable speed.

edit: I'm in sanc chakra most of the time with the exception of certain fights like: Ji'kun (H) where I'm healing tanks on the top platform 100%, and like the beginning of some fights like Durumu & Dark Animus. Then switching back to sanc as aoe damage ramps up, or tank damage is negligible enough where I don't feel like I need the throughput on single target. Otherwise our shaman/pally handle tanks and I worry about the raid.
Edited by Circenn on 4/22/2013 7:50 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
I guess this also depends on how often you use Renew, but I just can't see an argument for high Renew usage regardless of bracket, as it does a lot of overhealing and doesn't scale with our Mastery.


It depends. It depends on raid comp, damage patterns, movement requirements, raid spacing, number of healers, severity of tank damage, etc. IMO Sanctuary is still the go to option for short phases of large, raid-wide burst damage or for consistent AoE damage when tank healing needs are low. But for most other situations Serenity gives very good results. It can be surprisingly efficient to rely on Renew and it's refresh mechanic rather than PoH as filler in 10's in many situations.

I think part of your questioning has to do with the reputation of Holy in 25's. The spec is better suited for handling mass raid-wide AoE damage. In most 25's I believe it's typical to sit in Sanctuary and cover this damage type while other healers can cover most of the tank damage. When you drop to 2 healers in 10m raids this goes out the window. Both healers cover everything, and any priorities are extremely weak at best. So while Sanctuary may seem like the superior Chakra for covering AoE damage situations, Serenity is often the better option as your single-target capabilities are significantly stronger and heavy reliance on Renew in Serenity can sufficiently cover raid damage in many situations, provided it's done well.

^
These situations of 2 healing a 10m raid are where Chakra really becomes a problem. The 30 second CD often forces you into choosing the least worst option for a given situation. And many raid encounters don't line up perfectly where it's only single-target damage or only raid damage in each 30 second window of time. It'd probably be a non-issue if every such situation featured heavy raid damage and lighter single-target damage or vice verse. But a lot of them end up featuring heavy raid damage and heavy single target damage.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
But a lot of them end up featuring heavy raid damage and heavy single target damage.


But wouldn't Sanctuary be the better option during such types of phases? PoM, CoH and PoH will still be your top heals, and having +25% healing to your DI PoMs seems like it'd be better.
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100 Draenei Priest
10135
But wouldn't Sanctuary be the better option during such types of phases? PoM, CoH and PoH will still be your top heals, and having +25% healing to your DI PoMs seems like it'd be better.

I think you greatly overestimate the value of DI PoM for selective single target healing.

Yes, it's very powerful. It's also a proc which requires you to be casting PoH (if you're in Sanctuary), which is the opposite of what you want to do when there's heavy single target burst going out. It's also a % RNG proc, not an ICD or anything reliable like that.

Even if you saved the proc and avoided casting PoM (eg. you suffer a huge HPS / HPM penalty), you're still going to have times when it simply isn't available. Sometimes that's just not acceptable.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I think you greatly overestimate the value of DI PoM for selective single target healing.Yes, it's very powerful. It's also a proc which requires you to be casting PoH (if you're in Sanctuary), which is the opposite of what you want to do when there's heavy single target burst going out. It's also a % RNG proc, not an ICD or anything reliable like that.


This is during periods of high raid and single damage though, which means that your top heals will still be PoM, CoH, PoH and your level 90 talents, all of which only benefit from Sanctuary. I can't forsee many situations this tier whereby the extra 20-30k from your single target heal will make a huge difference, especially since you're not solo healing the tanks, and the extra smart healing capabilities of CoH and PoM should be necessary compensation.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/22/2013 8:50 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Priest
0
I only use Serenity in 10's if the amount of movement is absurd. AKA Blade Lord on the run, parts of Primordius, etc. It's very niche.

Sanctuary is almost always better, even with tank healing. I have to agree with Ceddya. With the 2pc, you're seeing 200k+ crits of PoM. If your tank is dying between bounces it's because they didn't mitigate enough themselves. 100k+ Prayer of Healing crits don't hurt either, you can basically tank heal with PoH...though obviously I only can speak from normals atm.
Edited by Qùess on 4/22/2013 9:02 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I ditched disc for holy when I found out I could get 350k plus crits on Halo.

In a more serious note I honestly like holy more than disc overall. I think its because there is just so much healing there.
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