Any 10-man priests give up on holy?

90 Pandaren Priest
12820
But wouldn't Sanctuary be the better option during such types of phases? PoM, CoH and PoH will still be your top heals, and having +25% healing to your DI PoMs seems like it'd be better.


I guess it just depends on the severity of the tank damage/raid damage, how much movement is needed, spacing of the raid and stuff like that. From the perspective of the raid damage component, I'd say Sanctuary would be the stronger option. But in many cases Renew in Serenity can get the job done sufficiently enough to ensure nobody dies. And by staying in Serenity you have significantly more oomph from your Renew/single-target heals, the Renew refresh mechanic, HW:S for handling the single-target damage component, mobility, etc.

Yes, you could stay in Sanctuary and rely on DI PoM and the weaker single-target heals for handling the single-target damage component, while enjoying the better AoE healing. Many times this ends up happening. Where it can potentially fall short is when you have a spread out raid, you have a lot of movement or tank damage is the greater concern (or all 3).
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90 Undead Priest
7260
04/22/2013 09:53 PMPosted by Volios
But wouldn't Sanctuary be the better option during such types of phases? PoM, CoH and PoH will still be your top heals, and having +25% healing to your DI PoMs seems like it'd be better.


I guess it just depends on the severity of the tank damage/raid damage, how much movement is needed, spacing of the raid and stuff like that. From the perspective of the raid damage component, I'd say Sanctuary would be the stronger option. But in many cases Renew in Serenity can get the job done sufficiently enough to ensure nobody dies. And by staying in Serenity you have significantly more oomph from your Renew/single-target heals, the Renew refresh mechanic, HW:S for handling the single-target damage component, mobility, etc.

Yes, you could stay in Sanctuary and rely on DI PoM and the weaker single-target heals for handling the single-target damage component, while enjoying the better AoE healing. Many times this ends up happening. Where it can potentially fall short is when you have a spread out raid, you have a lot of movement or tank damage is the greater concern (or all 3).


I feel that many times the extra throughput from Sanctuary would simply be overheal.

A very valid option is to switch chakras for specifc phases of the fight, depending on need. The amount of raid awareness is really no different than stacking a SS; watching a raid ability timer, and 10 seconds or so before the ability switching chakras and getting in position for the AoE.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8340
A very valid option is to switch chakras for specifc phases of the fight, depending on need. The amount of raid awareness is really no different than stacking a SS; watching a raid ability timer, and 10 seconds or so before the ability switching chakras and getting in position for the AoE.

I think that is what the dev's had in mind when they designed chakra. It is basically a way to add complexity to the spec and make you plan ahead. The problem is, diversity is king right now. A big part of why holy paladins are so popular right now (aside from IH) is there is never really a situation where their toolkit is bad. Tank damage? they can do that. Spread raid damage? Hot up the raid with EF. Stacked raid damage? Even better, swap HR into the rotation and continue to hot up the raid.

The reality is on many fights damage patterns either swap back and forth quicker then the cd on chakra allows, or even worse they have both high tank damage and raid damage overlapping (think Htortos rockfall+snapping bite). In these situations, esp 2healing, there really is no choice. Sanc is unable to keep up with single target requirements from the splash healing from PoM+DI and CoH, so direct heals are needed. I can't think of a faster road to oom then direct healing in sanc, which forces you in to serenity and renew spam. This is quite different then planning ahead for SS, in that it actually takes away your choice, and therefore your spell selection, not adding to it like SS.

Edit: another aspect of this is gearing. If you accept that you will need to spend large portions of time in serenity for single target, but have to aoe heal at the same time, you will most likely renew "spam" as mentioned above. The only way this actually yields decent output is glyphed and hitting the renew breakpoint. Reforging this way further devalues sanc chakra as you loose a significant amount of mastery hitting the renew breakpoint, which further reinforces staying in serenity, and not stance dancing.
Edited by Mythrose on 4/23/2013 11:56 AM PDT
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90 Undead Priest
7260
Excellent points.



Edit: another aspect of this is gearing. If you accept that you will need to spend large portions of time in serenity for single target, but have to aoe heal at the same time, you will most likely renew "spam" as mentioned above. The only way this actually yields decent output is glyphed and hitting the renew breakpoint. Reforging this way further devalues sanc chakra as you loose a significant amount of mastery hitting the renew breakpoint, which further reinforces staying in serenity, and not stance dancing.


The second renew breakpoint is fairly easy to hit in 510+ gear.

IIRC, Haste is still the best throughput stat.

The major shift in stat weights from serendipity to sancturary is Renew doesn't fully benefit from Mastery. By gearing for Spirit>Haste>Crit>Mastery you can ensure your entire toolkit takes advantage of your secondary stats.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8340
True, but it still devalues sanc. The problem is, haste may indeed be the best throughput stat, but holy, and sanc especially, is mana not throughput limited. Ie, if you are chain casting, you will oom. Pacing is key in sanc, and extra haste just makes pacing yourself even harder. Mastery on the other hand makes every spell hit harder, and in my mind is the clear winner for sanc chakra. Regardless, I think it's a safe statement that renew being our main raid healing tool in serenity, and not benefiting from mastery, is a further impediment to chakra switching, as it is impossible to reforge optimally for both at the same time.
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90 Undead Priest
7260
04/23/2013 12:53 PMPosted by Mythrose
True, but it still devalues sanc.


Mastery is a funny stat. If your spell heals the target for full, it's simply overhealing. To use mastery efficiently you have to watch the health bars and actively try NOT to overheal.

In the scenario where the raid is taking constant aoe damage, and EoL isn't going to be sniped (two-healing Megeara for example), haste is still a better throughput stat, expecially since EoL stacks.

However, you're right on about throttling throughput.

As a disc priest, spell selection and chain casting aren't really an issue. You simply go 100% offense until reactive heals are needed, or, to stack SS. Mana CDs aren't really a consideration.

Now as haste-stacking holy I must be much more aware of many things; Mana CD's, what other healers are casting, when to dial up my output, etc. As I've gotten better at these, my personal mana issues have gone away. Haste-heavy holy is really beautiful if played correctly (and I'm still getting better at it every week).

My point is, haste isn't devalued in either chakra. All our spells benefit from it. Although it does require a bit of discipline to pull off.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17145
Now as haste-stacking holy I must be much more aware of many things; Mana CD's, what other healers are casting, when to dial up my output, etc. As I've gotten better at these, my personal mana issues have gone away. Haste-heavy holy is really beautiful if played correctly (and I'm still getting better at it every week).


You do not appear to "stacking" haste or have a "haste-heavy" build to me.

You are gemming for everything under the sun: spirit, mastery, crit and haste.

As for reforging, you have left Crit untouched on five pieces of gear that do not have haste. You have actually reforged *out* of haste into crit on your chest. And you have reforged out of mastery into crit on two other pieces of gear.
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90 Undead Priest
7260
04/23/2013 01:27 PMPosted by Taymage
Now as haste-stacking holy I must be much more aware of many things; Mana CD's, what other healers are casting, when to dial up my output, etc. As I've gotten better at these, my personal mana issues have gone away. Haste-heavy holy is really beautiful if played correctly (and I'm still getting better at it every week).


You do not appear to "stacking" haste or have a "haste-heavy" build to me.

You are gemming for everything under the sun: spirit, mastery, crit and haste.

As for reforging, you have left Crit untouched on five pieces of gear that do not have haste. You have actually reforged *out* of haste into crit on your chest. And you have reforged out of mastery into crit on two other pieces of gear.


There are a few hastes breakpoints for holy:

http://talesofapriest.com/resources/haste-breakpoints/

The haste breakpoint I aimed for is 4721.

I've been playing with my gem setup over the past 24hrs...
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8340
Now as haste-stacking holy I must be much more aware of many things; Mana CD's, what other healers are casting, when to dial up my output, etc. As I've gotten better at these, my personal mana issues have gone away. Haste-heavy holy is really beautiful if played correctly (and I'm still getting better at it every week).


Now imagine what you could do if every single thing you did in sanc chakra benefited from 4721 extra mastery. Apply that same level of care to your cd's, overhealing, etc, with a full mastery build in sanc, and you will find that you can A: spend more of your time casting, because of slower cast times, and B: have every single thing you do hit harder. A haste build will sacrifice some amount of sustained output when you are in sanc, no way around it.

Contrast that to serenity, where the only way we can get good results with renew spamming is hitting the 4721 breakpoint and glyphing renew. My point is then, that gearing for acceptable raid healing in serenity (which many times is a necessary evil because we need the single target power) negatively impacts our sustained in sanc, and further decreases the attractiveness of chakra dancing.
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