Disc is not Overpowered.

90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Do comparisons for yourselves go and talk to the top raiding priests. They go holy for 3, maybe 4 fights because its not as good. (for progression. Farm fights are whatever)


That's not true. There are at least 6 fights where Holy's better than Disc, and 2 others where there's little difference between whether you spec Disc or Holy.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/22/2013 7:23 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
It's flat out mindnumbing how dumb and broken Paladin mastery is as well as atonement healing, as well as -STILL- Spirit Shell. It's flat out mindblowing that Blizzard thinks Paladin Mastery is ok and not OP. Their junk 2% nerf to it makes absolutely no difference.


Just have to correct this one bit. It's a 2% nerf to the base of 12%, which affects the scaling. In other words, our mastery is being reduced by 16.7%, which will result in a full on 5% nerf to our overall HPS on average. This, on top of losing our (grossly overpowered) T-14 for another 5%+.

So yes, Blizzard does agree with your belief that healadins were overpowered.

I don't think we're that much stronger, except on overheal content (like LFR) or in comparison to others at lower skill levels. The unique method of paladin healing (and disc healing, for that matter) gives us a more gradual learning curve than the other healers. It's newbie friendly, i.e, overheal and spell selection friendly.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
I have to wonder which one is the chicken and which one the egg. The thing is, last numbers I checked, healadin and priest made up 40% or more of the healer base, mainly because paladins and priests are popular classes. Thus, even in a 10 man group that 2-heals something, on average every group is going to have one. So it may not be a case of "We have to have one," so much as "It's very easy to get one."

Er, hmm. There's only 5 healing classes anyways (6 specs). In 10 man you generally take what you can get, though in 25 you have a little bit of wiggle room. Absorbs happen to be part of strategy, just like you try to get all 8 buffs, a bloodlust, lock stones, and so forth. I've yet to hear about skilled healers being turned away in favor of H.Pally/Disc apart from gimmick fights where they're incredibly strong (stacking AoE damage like Jin'rohk or damage multipliers like Horriden), and in the former you can still use another spec as long as you're not doing the equivalent of blue-geared bleeding edge content (but in those guilds, everyone has alts so you can class stack).
Edited by Wards on 4/22/2013 9:06 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
14915
04/22/2013 09:04 PMPosted by Wards
I have to wonder which one is the chicken and which one the egg. The thing is, last numbers I checked, healadin and priest made up 40% or more of the healer base, mainly because paladins and priests are popular classes.


Disc numbers are still obviously too high, but yes, you do have to take population into consideration. If all things were equal, Priests and Paladins would still top representation due to sheer numbers.
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100 Tauren Druid
9040
Disc has been overpowered since firelands. Every raid comp out there looks for disc and or pallys because of absorbs. Absorbs allow for " softer mechanics" Or a "cushion" to raid damage.

As long as disc priests and pally give out absorbs we both will be the go to healer choices. Sure other classes can get the job done but why not take advantage of absorbs if they are available.

The small amounts of dps disc priests bring also adds to the pot.


I absolutely disagree with that. I obliterated my teams Disc priest during all of FL and DS. But come Mop, either I become an utter noob, or disc was buffed farrrrrr too much when they complained early on, before they even started raiding. lol.

Although I do agree with absorbs. That's the core issue with all healer balance; Absorbs > Heals. Therefore; Dear blizz; Give absorbs to ALL healers, or get rid of them entirely outside of the old fashioned PW;S.

The paladin mastery is an absolute utter joke. And, even though I hate it because how stupidly OP/unbalanced it is, I hate complaining about it because I don't have any ideas on how you could change that. All I know is that the mere fact you would have a mastery do what illuminated healing does, that's pretty insulting. That's absolutely insane in the first place. Infact, while I'm at it, Druid mastery is pretty stupid as well. Increase flat %of healing done for x seconds after a hard cast/SM? That imo is flat out lazy garbage. What a pathetic bandaid. Why doesnt blizzard just fix god damn core issues with certain classes?
Edited by Tonydanza on 4/23/2013 1:15 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12595
But come Mop, either I become an utter noob, or disc was buffed farrrrrr too much when they complained early on, before they even started raiding. lol.

Disc was buffed too much and in the wrong way. They basically did the same thing they just did with shamans: they buffed the spec's strong point (blanket AoE/shielding) instead of fixing its weak/broken point (scattered/random damage). The difference, of course, is that buffing Disc's strengths is dangerous, whereas you can buff shaman strengths all day and nobody's particularly going to care.

Then they finally got around to fixing the weak point, and they fixed it way too well (40 yard Atonement), so Disc went from "severely OP" to "obscenely OP", especially when they got a hold of the t14 set bonus.

5.2 nerfed them back down to "mildly OP." They're really not that bad right now; their HPS is right in line with everyone else's (maybe a little ahead in 10s because of the suppression effect).

Bringing other classes' utility in line with theirs would be better for balance than nerfing their HPS would, because if you nerf their output too much more, they won't be able to put up adequate peak numbers.

An alternative would be to hit their mana (nerf Rapture or Atonement efficiency by a fairly large amount). That lets them stay viable for high-damage periods while cutting their overall effective healing and letting other healers feel more useful.
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100 Goblin Shaman
8700
You see the problem is this:

I get into a group on this one with two disc priests and twp holy pallies and there's literally 0 damage being taken during the fight. There's nothing to heal, so I just throw RT on people. Then I have some random disc priest in the group complaining about my HPS.

That is the issue I have is with absorbs- they're still a tad too strong. It's even worse when you have to tell the disc priest how his class works compared to this one.

I really don't care about being #1 on the meter, I just want to feel like I'm being useful.
Edited by Jujubiju on 4/23/2013 2:49 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
04/22/2013 03:01 PMPosted by Zolvolt
A lot of the information provided is people playing whats best or needed. If holy was better than more people would play holy. But absorbs are just more useful.


and that is the current issue with healing.
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90 Human Warrior
9440
All absorbs less PW:S need to be removed from the game. Everyone will actual heal again as opposed to preventing healing from occuring.


So you would prefer to be the only proactive healer in the game? QQ less resto druid. Its not about the single its about the heaing combonation. if there is no disc for you to be backfilling, then we will just replace you with a shammy with smarter heals.
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90 Human Warrior
9440
04/22/2013 12:37 PMPosted by Mitimem
I know cascade is really strong for a 25 man enviroment, but nothing even comes close to a 25 man tranquility.

I don't think you understand how Tranquility works. With the common haste breakpoint it will send out five ticks and each tick will heal five players. The time it takes for Tranquility to heal often means the last tick is overheal anyway.

Monk Revival can easily produce more healing than Tranquility in 25-man if the entire raid has damage. There's many spells that can be particularly powerful under the right circumstances. My point is, Tranquility is not unrivaled.
I also don't know why you'd compare Cascade to Tranquility. One is a major cooldown and the other is not. Over the course of an entire fight Cascade should almost always heal for much more than Tranquility because it has a greater uptime. The difference being that Cascade does that healing over the course of several minutes and Tranquility will be active for 8-24 seconds depending on the fight. The only druid spell that is similar is Wild Growth.


lol, well I never thought of people using cascade differently than I do. I use is as a burst heal with wings up, and possibly PI depending if a stun follows it IE: Tortos. The more efficently I can play with my priest, then the more spirit I can drop for int. Using cascade like that kind of give me a "O !@#$ the raid is gonna die" CD. Other wise I really don't have anything like that. Its acctually part of why I can't stand the complaining about disc, when things are all hunky dorey, disc is on top of the meters. but let the raid start faceplanting and see where the meter is. I will bet that a druid, shammy, and pally have more "OMG HAVE TO SAVE THE RAID" type heals. You know I can do? Drop a half bubble that only 3 people stand in. Don't Even Say Spirit shell, becuase that needs a strong heal to be paired with it and PoH is terrible.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
04/23/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Teufelhunden
So you would prefer to be the only proactive healer in the game? QQ less resto druid.


Way to miss what i wrote completely. And there is little chance that i play all the healers, especially since i have the fearless title and 0 HM kills in T14 on this toon.
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90 Human Warrior
9440
Do you pre emptively roll hots?
I pre emptilvly smite becuase I know damage is coming in.
Do you have a really strong aoe burst healing ability?
Bummer I don't.
WAit, you can rez people in combat?
Wish I had that.
You can share abilities with other classes?
Whoa like not fair bro
You can do 12% armor reduction with one spell?
Man that sounds really useful, I wonder how much more damage that adds to the boss over the whole raid.
I don't Know about this Druid class guys they sound really overpowered. I really think blizzard should nerf them in a way that breaks how there class works. Wait I have a great Idea. No hots on the target unless they are taking damage. like so they have to react to the damage instead of peparing for it.

^Said in jest to make a point. Stop trying to break my class and force me into an addon reliant heal spec.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Whatever mechanical issues Disc faces doesn't change the fact that Atonement was doing far too much for too little effort. It needed to be changed.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/23/2013 5:51 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
9440
Do you have any idea what my effort level even is? like Just my opener is literally an iron clad 16 globals long. And guess what I roll 90k deeps using that opener for about 20 secs. how is that to much reward for the effort?
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
04/23/2013 05:45 AMPosted by Teufelhunden
^Said in jest to make a point.


The point is you are missing the point. That is all. I don't want classes to be the same. Your examples are horrible at best.

I am not complaining or looking at it from a resto druid standpoint. What i post on has nothing to do with anything.

I am speaking from a game design standpoint, not class.

But continue on with your "don't nerf me bro" mentality.
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100 Goblin Shaman
8700
Don't Even Say Spirit shell, becuase that needs a strong heal to be paired with it and PoH is terrible.


The way I use SS: hit SS, POH group 1, POH group 2 (etc for 25m). Once the damage goes out, hit cascade on the group then use my smite macro.

I use it as a "BIG DAMAGE IS COMING" cooldown. POH still spreads it.

Never had any issues healing this way.
Edited by Jujubiju on 4/23/2013 6:33 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
....Its acctually part of why I can't stand the complaining about disc, when things are all hunky dorey, disc is on top of the meters. but let the raid start faceplanting and see where the meter is. ...

Your obsession with the HPS meters is actually why you are blind to why disc is so powerful, especially in 10H. It is the damage done and damage mitigated, combined with the lack of "6+ players need to stack up within 8 yards or I can't heal to my fullest" type of abilities.

Atonement isn't a trade right now. It's a mind-numbingly easy way to do a bunch of damage while still doing roughly average non-CD popping healing, while also spending very little mana.
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90 Pandaren Monk
14715
The major problem I have with disc is that with high end gear levels you can mindlessly spam PoH without thinking about it (which is something they didn't change in 5.1 they only lowered the numbers). This is something that plagues paladins as well.

1-2 mana tides + 14k + spirit and you can just mindlessly spam PoH. This means that they can just prestack on shields and not even care about their overhealing, if you're not going oom why not just endlessly spam so the raid can take less damage?

Absorbs just need to be more active like spirit shell, not just passively there. I wouldn't have a problem with disc priests if the only absorbs they had was spirit shell and PW:S.
Edited by Suplift on 4/23/2013 6:55 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
1-2 mana tides + 14k + spirit and you can just mindlessly spam PoH. This means that they can just prestack on shields and not even care about their overhealing, if you're not going oom why not just endlessly spam so the raid can take less damage?


Uh, PoH and DA haven't worked that way since 5.2.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/23/2013 6:55 AM PDT
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