Shaman need compensation for DH/Tran/Rev buff

90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The developers really need to take a hard look at the place 25 man Resto Shaman will be put in with the 240% buffs to Divine Hymn, Tranquility and Revival. I realize that the argument has been made that Shaman are stronger in 25 man than 10 man. However, we are at or near the bottom in most cases, and are definitely not in a position where we can sustain Monks, Priests and Druids getting a 240% buff to their major raid cooldown while we get nothing to compensate/at least keep us in the spot where we are now.

In 25H, we are currently marginally above druids, but significantly below the other 4 specs. In 25N, we are at the bottom. You also have to consider that one of the largest excuses for our output being weak and our toolkit (for spread/mobile healing) being limited is utility. These changes make our utility take a major hit, because our primary raid cooldown, Healing Tide was not buffed and is now going to be about 40% of the strength of Tranquility, Divine Hymn and Revival. It is no longer going to be a major raid cooldown.

On top of that, SLT is extremely weak and limited. It has half the damage reduction of Devotion Aura or PW: Barrier, has the same range limitation as Barrier, and has 40% less duration than Barrier. The only time the health redistribution component is particularly effective is on fights with gimmick healing mechanics that SLT can bypass (Spine, Cho'gall, etc). Anywhere else, it is effectively a half baked raid CD that is weaker in every way to Barrier, Devo Aura, etc.

So, we are left with half or less of a Tranq-like cooldown, a half strength raid CD, and are still the only class without a tank cooldown of any kind. On top of that, these buffs to other classes will make us clearly the lowest throughput healer by a significant margin, and major mechanical issues with our ability to viably heal spread fights have been nearly completely overlooked for 3 expansions.

We still have Mana Tide, and that is really all that is left that seperates us. The problem is, the later in the expansion, MTT becomes less and less significant with the ridiculous amount of regen gains from gear scaling, legendary metas, overpowered Horridon trinkets, etc. Healers will soon get to the point where they don't really need it, and where the extra regen does not compensate for the mechanical and throughput deficiencies.

Something needs to be done. Either HTT needs to be given the same treatment as all other similar abilities, or Shaman output overall needs to be significantly buffed to compensate for the significant buffs to other classes.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17040
Haha. You know, I don't disagree with you. I just find this funny, I'm sorry.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8130
Well, theres a few things to consider.

First, you have two raid CD's. A healing CD, and a damage reduction CD (and it does more than DR). No DR CD's are being changed.
On the other hand, all other healing CD's were buffed except yours. Your's was already easily doing 2x the other healers though, in the times where it's needed. (My ilvl 480 rsham can get 2.5mil HTT's.)

That being said, this would likely place their throughput behind others again (the buff did a lot to equalize Rsham's in 25s actually, if you aren't doing well you need to learn to adjust to fights tbh.) Should there be some compensation? Yes probably. Does it need to be a 2.5x buff like the others? That'd be completely absurd.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
15750
Well, theres a few things to consider.

First, you have two raid CD's. A healing CD, and a damage reduction CD (and it does more than DR). No DR CD's are being changed.
On the other hand, all other healing CD's were buffed except yours. Your's was already easily doing 2x the other healers though, in the times where it's needed. (My ilvl 480 rsham can get 2.5mil HTT's.)

That being said, this would likely place their throughput behind others again (the buff did a lot to equalize Rsham's in 25s actually, if you aren't doing well you need to learn to adjust to fights tbh.) Should there be some compensation? Yes probably. Does it need to be a 2.5x buff like the others? That'd be completely absurd.


This is foolish, please stop.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
Oh geez
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
If we're going to buff HTT like the other heals, and I'm not saying we shouldn't, can we at least normalize the other CDs too by allowing them to properly scale with Haste.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
15750
If we're going to buff HTT like the other heals, and I'm not saying we shouldn't, can we at least normalize the other CDs too by allowing them to properly scale with Haste.


While they're at it, they need to fix totem breakpoints =[
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Well, theres a few things to consider.

First, you have two raid CD's. A healing CD, and a damage reduction CD (and it does more than DR). No DR CD's are being changed.
On the other hand, all other healing CD's were buffed except yours. Your's was already easily doing 2x the other healers though, in the times where it's needed. (My ilvl 480 rsham can get 2.5mil HTT's.)


We have a healing cooldown that, after the changes will be doing 40% of what the other healing cooldowns are doing. We also have a damage reduction cooldown that is position limited, duration limited (only 6 seconds), and only does half the damage reduction of similar cooldowns. The damage redistribution only becomes strong on gimmick fights. So, we have two "ghetto" half powered cooldowns, which I guess is as good as one real cooldown. But we also have no tank cooldown at all, which isn't really compensated for with these nerfs.

Saying HTT does 2 times as much as other cooldowns is ridiculous. Tranquility does about the same as Healing Tide - HTT can sometimes do slightly more if the raid is at exceptionally low health. HTT does maybe 20% more than Revival or Divine Hymn, but also doesn't have the debuff removal/healing done buffs that already amply compensates for the lower output.

Shaman output right now is, like I said, at the bottom edge of what you could consider fine. Druids and Shaman are closely bunched together, but significantly below every other specs. With Druids getting a ~15% buff, and MW and Holy Priests also getting significant buffs, we will unquestionably be in as bad of a relative position (if not worse) than we were at the start of 5.2. I would argue that is going to be worse, because burst matters a lot in viability, and we at least had the advantage of having a very strong healing cooldown and a (somewhat gimped) raid mitigation cooldown. HTT will be garbage in comparison to other similar CDs in 5.3, meaning that we no longer even have that. We effectively lose both utility and relative output (when we were already barely above the bottom) with no compensation.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
Can we just delete all of them and start over? Ugh.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
04/22/2013 03:19 PMPosted by Sensations
If we're going to buff HTT like the other heals, and I'm not saying we shouldn't, can we at least normalize the other CDs too by allowing them to properly scale with Haste.


While they're at it, they need to fix totem breakpoints =[


Totem breakpoints have been inconsistent/flat out broken since 4.3 went live. I am not sure that breakpoints that vary unreliably based on your latency/connection from minute to minute are really effective. I am pretty sure Tranq has haste breakpoints, doesn't it?
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
The more this expansion progresses, I am unconvinced that the developers care for healer balance moreso than healers being functional.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17040
I am pretty sure Tranq has haste breakpoints, doesn't it?


I believe haste can provide extra ticks only for the HoT portion of tranq.

Edit: I also think it may be difficult to achieve more than one extra tick of the HoT.

But I also may be completely wrong.
Edited by Taymage on 4/22/2013 4:00 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
12925
Why would they buff HTT? Buffing it would just make it more of a default choice than it already is.

HTT is not meant to be the equivalent of DH/Tranq/Revival. That's what SLT is for and it already scales with raid size unlike the previous 3 I listed (Revival scales, but poorly).

HTT is a talent choice (a rather default one unfortunately). It's role is similar to Incarnation in the sense that it's on a 3 min CD and it boosts your healing done for a period of time. HTT just happens to have an effect similar to Tranq/DH in that it heals 5 targets and requires no input from the Shaman other than dropping it.

If you feel you want compensation that's fine, but buffing HTT is the wrong way to go about it.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
15750
Why would they buff HTT? Buffing it would just make it more of a default choice than it already is.

HTT is not meant to be the equivalent of DH/Tranq/Revival. That's what SLT is for and it already scales with raid size unlike the previous 3 I listed (Revival scales, but poorly).

HTT is a talent choice (a rather default one unfortunately). It's role is similar to Incarnation in the sense that it's on a 3 min CD and it boosts your healing done for a period of time. HTT just happens to have an effect similar to Tranq/DH in that it heals 5 targets and requires no input from the Shaman other than dropping it.

If you feel you want compensation that's fine, but buffing HTT is the wrong way to go about it.


So you want to buff Shamans again in 25m to compensate of not buffing the talents in the tier for 25m, which would indirectly buff 10m.

Here's food for thought, buff both HTT and AG for 25m! Holy who would've thought.

HTT is not meant to be the equivalent of DH/Tranq/Revival.


Actually it is, SLT is our first raid cooldown and HTT or AG is our second in place of having NO tank cd.
Edited by Sensations on 4/22/2013 4:14 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17040
04/22/2013 04:11 PMPosted by Juvenate
HTT is a talent choice


The fact that blizzard forced shaman to spend a talent point on a cooldown that two other classes have baseline is an exceedingly poor reason not to buff that cooldown.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Why would they buff HTT? Buffing it would just make it more of a default choice than it already is.

HTT is not meant to be the equivalent of DH/Tranq/Revival. That's what SLT is for and it already scales with raid size unlike the previous 3 I listed (Revival scales, but poorly).

HTT is a talent choice (a rather default one unfortunately). It's role is similar to Incarnation in the sense that it's on a 3 min CD and it boosts your healing done for a period of time. HTT just happens to have an effect similar to Tranq/DH in that it heals 5 targets and requires no input from the Shaman other than dropping it.

If you feel you want compensation that's fine, but buffing HTT is the wrong way to go about it.


HTT is filling exactly the same role in the Shaman toolkit as Divine Hymn, Tranq, and Revival fill. It is irrelevant that it is a talent; the bottom line is, they have designed it, allowed it to become a mandatory talent, and basically balanced Shaman healing around it. Shaman output is 100% balanced around using HTT effectively and on near CD. It has overshadowed and essentially replaced SLT since it was introduced, because SLT is so weak in any situation outside of Spine-like gimmick debuffs. It is also logical for Shaman to have a 2nd raid cooldown given the absence of a tank cooldown.

You can't buff everything else that fills the same role as HTT, including buffing the cooldowns of healers that are already significantly ahead of Shaman, ignore Shaman completely and not expect there to be a major class balance issue created by this.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12925
Why would they buff HTT? Buffing it would just make it more of a default choice than it already is.

HTT is not meant to be the equivalent of DH/Tranq/Revival. That's what SLT is for and it already scales with raid size unlike the previous 3 I listed (Revival scales, but poorly).

HTT is a talent choice (a rather default one unfortunately). It's role is similar to Incarnation in the sense that it's on a 3 min CD and it boosts your healing done for a period of time. HTT just happens to have an effect similar to Tranq/DH in that it heals 5 targets and requires no input from the Shaman other than dropping it.

If you feel you want compensation that's fine, but buffing HTT is the wrong way to go about it.


So you want to buff Shamans again in 25m to compensate of not buffing the talents in the tier for 25m, which would indirectly buff 10m.

Here's food for thought, buff both HTT and AG for 25m! Holy who would've thought.

HTT is not meant to be the equivalent of DH/Tranq/Revival.


Actually it is, SLT is our first raid cooldown and HTT or AG is our second in place of having NO tank cd.


That's not really true. Blizzard isn't going to bake in a "raid cooldown" for you in your talent tree because you are lacking a tank cooldown. Shaman make up for the lack of a tank CD in other forms of utility. I maintain that HTT is your version of Incarnation. It is a throughput CD that greatly increases your healing every 3 min. It's affect is just similar. There's a reason it is on the same tier as Conductivity (a passive just like SotF for Druids).
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
15750


So you want to buff Shamans again in 25m to compensate of not buffing the talents in the tier for 25m, which would indirectly buff 10m.

Here's food for thought, buff both HTT and AG for 25m! Holy who would've thought.

Actually it is, SLT is our first raid cooldown and HTT or AG is our second in place of having NO tank cd.


That's not really true. Blizzard isn't going to bake in a "raid cooldown" for you in your talent tree because you are lacking a tank cooldown. Shaman make up for the lack of a tank CD in other forms of utility. I maintain that HTT is your version of Incarnation. It is a throughput CD that greatly increases your healing every 3 min. It's affect is just similar. There's a reason it is on the same tier as Conductivity (a passive just like SotF for Druids).


If their design succeeded maybe I could agree. But with how HTT has been treated up to this point, it just doesn't support that theory. Conductivity doesn't exist for resto, they might as well leave it blank because there will never be a situation where it's taken. We basically pick 1 of two raid cd's.

Their tree design has FAILED. There is nothing wrong with scaling up both HTT/AG for 25m, how are they going to compensate Shaman otherwise? This change is going to create MASSIVE imbalance issues between Paladins, Disc, Shamans and Monks, Druids, Hpriest and will only cause problems.
Edited by Sensations on 4/22/2013 4:28 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
12925
Why would they buff HTT? Buffing it would just make it more of a default choice than it already is.

HTT is not meant to be the equivalent of DH/Tranq/Revival. That's what SLT is for and it already scales with raid size unlike the previous 3 I listed (Revival scales, but poorly).

HTT is a talent choice (a rather default one unfortunately). It's role is similar to Incarnation in the sense that it's on a 3 min CD and it boosts your healing done for a period of time. HTT just happens to have an effect similar to Tranq/DH in that it heals 5 targets and requires no input from the Shaman other than dropping it.

If you feel you want compensation that's fine, but buffing HTT is the wrong way to go about it.


HTT is filling exactly the same role in the Shaman toolkit as Divine Hymn, Tranq, and Revival fill. It is irrelevant that it is a talent; the bottom line is, they have designed it, allowed it to become a mandatory talent, and basically balanced Shaman healing around it. Shaman output is 100% balanced around using HTT effectively and on near CD. It has overshadowed and essentially replaced SLT since it was introduced, because SLT is so weak in any situation outside of Spine-like gimmick debuffs. It is also logical for Shaman to have a 2nd raid cooldown given the absence of a tank cooldown.

You can't buff everything else that fills the same role as HTT, including buffing the cooldowns of healers that are already significantly ahead of Shaman, ignore Shaman completely and not expect there to be a major class balance issue created by this.


So rather than maybe advocating fixing the other 2 talents and maybe fixing your healing in other ways you'd rather just overbuff HTT and make it inherently against Blizzard's talent tree design?
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90 Night Elf Druid
12925


That's not really true. Blizzard isn't going to bake in a "raid cooldown" for you in your talent tree because you are lacking a tank cooldown. Shaman make up for the lack of a tank CD in other forms of utility. I maintain that HTT is your version of Incarnation. It is a throughput CD that greatly increases your healing every 3 min. It's affect is just similar. There's a reason it is on the same tier as Conductivity (a passive just like SotF for Druids).


If their design succeeded maybe I could agree. But with how HTT has been treated up to this point, it just doesn't support that theory. Conductivity doesn't exist for resto, they might as well leave it blank because there will never be a situation where it's taken. We basically pick 1 of two raid cd's.


I agree that the other 2 talents need major work. And until that time comes HTT is the default choice. But I still think they could find other ways to compensate.
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