Shaman need compensation for DH/Tran/Rev buff

90 Pandaren Shaman
6560
I'm all for buffing Restoration Shaman alongside the other HoT-based healers, but buffing it through Healing Tide Totem is not the proper way to do it.

The fact that Healing Tide Totem is the most chosen talent is irrelevant. Talents, by their inherent design, are meant to be malleable and a choice for the player, and having a talent that is head and shoulders above the other choices in the same tier is bad design. There is always going to be an encounter where one talent choice pushes ahead of the others, but trying to buff a talent that's taken by every Restoration Shaman in progression raiding on every raid encounter because "Hey, they all take it anyways, might as well!" is utter nonsense.

If you want some meaningful changes to be made to the specialization, then here's a good start I would suggest: nerf Healing Tide Totem so that the other options within the same tier are actual options, and buff Restoration Shaman in areas where they are actually hurting, such as spread healing and mobile healing, or perhaps actually make Spirit Link Totem worth a damn.


I don't disagree, just seems like it'd be easier to make HTT baseline instead, balance the numbers (if it means nerfing it then so be it) and offer another choice in its place. The ability is so core to our spec at this point, a drastic change to it this late in the xpac would feel, to me, like they'd be admitting we have serious problems, which they haven't admitted. Also, not sure if you were responding to my post earlier, or just offering your insight, i never said buff HTT, but having it as a core aspect of resto shaman healing (which it already is) makes sense as it closely mirrors, in practice, other raid CD's that aren't talents.
Edited by Billywd on 4/30/2013 11:21 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
04/30/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Billywd
I don't disagree, just seems like it'd be easier to make HTT baseline instead, balance the numbers (if it means nerfing it then so be it) and offer another choice in its place. The ability is so core to our spec at this point


This. Buff HTT, make it baseline, give Resto another talent there.
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90 Troll Shaman
12525
Personally I'd like AG to be made baseline for ele/enh and healing tide to be made baseline for resto, then 2 completely new talents to take their spots. Also elemental blast should be made baseline for ele with something new to replace it. Most likely the work of a new expansion though sadly.

That way healing tide can also be buffed for 25 mans since it's not a talent! That 25 man change shouldn't even go through in the first place though.
Edited by Kreyyn on 4/30/2013 11:23 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
15355
All that you are doing here is spouting off and regurgitating Blizzard's stated class design goals when they designed the new talent system. The bottom line is, their intent doesn't matter at this point. The reality is, HTT has become a core part of the Resto Shaman toolkit, it has become so mandatory that it is effectively baseline, and it fills the identical role for us as Tranquility and Divine Hymn fill. Whether that was their design or not means nothing. The distinction between talent and baseline skill also effectively means nothing - specs are balanced around their overall kit, not around talents being balanced across classes. Some classes have stronger talents, some classes have stronger baseline skills. It means absolutely nothing, as long as the total package is balanced.


When Healing Tide Totem holds such a great an importance that you emphasize, it's clear that the talent is too powerful in relation to the others in its tier and should not be buffed any further. If anything, it warrants a good nerf far more than a buff; buffing it further is simply going to exacerbate the issue, fixing nothing and only hurting Shaman more down the line.

If it's a matter of wanting effective raid cooldowns, I can understand wanting to have your toolkit to improve alongside other healers in order to not be left behind in the dust. I feel that Restoration Shaman would be better off vouching for buffs to Spirit Link Totem over Healing Tide Totem along with emphasizing fixes to their mobile and spread healing mechancis, which are admittedly very poor right now.

The bottom line is also that HTT was obviously designed to be a Tranq equivalent, and was put in the talent tree for that reason. If these changes go through, it is no longer a Tranq equivalent, and our entire talent tree and the strength of our spec is compromised significantly. Was it a bad idea to put that type of ability in as a talent? Probably. However, making it useless/inferior is not going to fix the failure in basic class design. On top of that, the Shaman talent tree really can't afford to be gutted any more than it already is, when you look at the near irrelevance of the first 3 tiers of talents, and the weakness of the L90 talents compared to those of other healers. The fundamental problem is that HTT should never have been a talent in the first place, but the fact that they were too lazy to make a replacement talent so it could be made baseline should in no way effect the fact that it needs to be buffed to keep pace with other identical abilities.


I would rather see Blizzard do away with Healing Tide Totem entirely, give Shaman a new option for the tier (along with fixing talent choices in general, but that's a long term goal) and balance numbers from there. That's just me, though.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
18945
When Healing Tide Totem holds such a great an importance that you emphasize, it's clear that the talent is too powerful in relation to the others in its tier and should not be buffed any further. If anything, it warrants a good nerf far more than a buff; buffing it further is simply going to exacerbate the issue, fixing nothing and only hurting Shaman more down the line.

If it's a matter of wanting effective raid cooldowns, I can understand wanting to have your toolkit to improve alongside other healers in order to not be left behind in the dust. I feel that Restoration Shaman would be better off vouching for buffs to Spirit Link Totem over Healing Tide Totem along with emphasizing fixes to their mobile and spread healing mechancis, which are admittedly very poor right now.


You do realize what Shamans have been asking for, since forever right? Also if they nerf HTT, please tell me how they would buff Rshamans in PvE without affecting PvP? I mean you make solid points, but they're very ill-informed based on what the Shaman community has been asking for and what we've decided to stick with.
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100 Human Paladin
15355
When Healing Tide Totem holds such a great an importance that you emphasize, it's clear that the talent is too powerful in relation to the others in its tier and should not be buffed any further. If anything, it warrants a good nerf far more than a buff; buffing it further is simply going to exacerbate the issue, fixing nothing and only hurting Shaman more down the line.

If it's a matter of wanting effective raid cooldowns, I can understand wanting to have your toolkit to improve alongside other healers in order to not be left behind in the dust. I feel that Restoration Shaman would be better off vouching for buffs to Spirit Link Totem over Healing Tide Totem along with emphasizing fixes to their mobile and spread healing mechancis, which are admittedly very poor right now.


You do realize what Shamans have been asking for, since forever right? Also if they nerf HTT, please tell me how they would buff Rshamans in PvE without affecting PvP? I mean you make solid points, but they're very ill-informed based on what the Shaman community has been asking for and what we've decided to stick with.


Significant changes to the Restoration Shaman toolkit aren't going to happen for at least another expansion, so I'm not ready to answer any big questions such as properly buffing Restoration Shaman without providing unnecessary PvP buffs in relation. That being said, I don't see mechanical fixes to abilities or passives like Chain Heal or Ancestral Awakening breaking them in rated PvP.

I'm curious of what you mean by "the Shaman community has been asking for and what we've decided to stick with". Not questioning your knowledge of the class, I'm legitimately curious of the details I'm missing that you know of.
Edited by Areos on 5/1/2013 1:45 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
5900
I wonder If we'd be discussing this if Ancestral Vigor showed up on logs.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
18945


You do realize what Shamans have been asking for, since forever right? Also if they nerf HTT, please tell me how they would buff Rshamans in PvE without affecting PvP? I mean you make solid points, but they're very ill-informed based on what the Shaman community has been asking for and what we've decided to stick with.


Significant changes to the Restoration Shaman toolkit aren't going to happen for at least another expansion, so I'm not ready to answer any big questions such as properly buffing Restoration Shaman without providing unnecessary PvP buffs in relation. That being said, I don't see mechanical fixes to abilities or passives like Chain Heal or Ancestral Awakening breaking them in rated PvP.

I'm curious of what you mean by "the Shaman community has been asking for and what we've decided to stick with". Not questioning your knowledge of the class, I'm legitimately curious of the details I'm missing that you know of.


All throughout Beta, Shamans were extremely active in fighting for positive mechanical changes for the class(Not being able to handle spread raid damage as say a Resto Druid, but better tools than we had). We said the glyphs to do the job weren't going to cut it, we said HTT would become a mandatory talent and they should just make it baseline and tune accordingly or buff both AG/Conductivity significantly(AG is currently an amazing talent if you have at least 6 people in a healing rain, it can easily compete with HTT, but it is much more inefficient and is not fire/forget).

They also can't keep buffing Chain Heal, I'm pretty sure most Shaman know why as well as know why Blizzard will never keep buffing Chain Heal(They scared). AA is a tricky buff, Shaman don't need a throughput buff in PvP and with upwards of a 40% crit chance on HS a AA buff is a PvP buff. This is why nerfing HTT/Not bringing it in line is a horrible idea, because they're soon going to run out of places to buff Rshamans. You can only buff HR/CH so much, hell my HR almost heals for as much as our Resto Druids rejuvs per person.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I wonder If we'd be discussing this if Ancestral Vigor showed up on logs.


It would make next to no difference. For one thing, Ancestral Vigor is not a heal, and does not fit the generally accepted definition of what healing output consists of. It doesn't heal, or prevent damage from being taken (i.e. absorb) in any way. It is a raid utility/buff. If you were to argue that AV needs to be part of HPS output, then things like PW:Fortitude would also have to be, because they are essentially the exact same mechanic - just a health pool increase.

On top of that, AV would be capped at a maximum of 10% additional output from its very design. Even then, the actual effectiveness of it is far less than that 10% theoretical maximum. Essentially, AV is only relevant if a player would have hit 0 HP if they did not have the AV buff on them. If that doesn't happen, the AV buff has no impact whatsoever. That just does not happen that much on typical fights. Most deaths are normally a result of failing mechanics that result in overkills by 100k+. There are fights like H Iron Qon where the extra health buffer is valuable, but I would argue that in most cases, it has minimal value except on tanks. In most cases, even if you were to consider it "output" - which is a completely false argument, the effective impact of it is 2% or less of our total throughput. The Ancestral Fortitude/Inspiration buff that was removed with MoP was far more important/valuable than AV.
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100 Orc Shaman
24390
Even if these buffs go through as is and shamans are even worse in 25m they will still be better in 25m than they are in 10m.

Let that sink in a minute.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Even if these buffs go through as is and shamans are even worse in 25m they will still be better in 25m than they are in 10m.

Let that sink in a minute.


Not really. Shaman are actually mathematically further behind in 25H than they are in 10H currently, although they are not at all in a strong spot in either. They will be far worse off in 25 than 10 after these go through.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
5900
If you were to argue that AV needs to be part of HPS output, then things like PW:Fortitude would also have to be, because they are essentially the exact same mechanic - just a health pool increase.


A max health increase that doesn't diminish health to a percentage after it fades (PW: Fortitude) is mechanically exact to a bubble with the added benefit that other healers can sort of refresh it. It essentially puts a buff on your target that allows up to 10% overhealing as a "bubble".

05/01/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Tiberria
On top of that, AV would be capped at a maximum of 10% additional output from its very design.


True, untill you heal someone at full hp with the buff about to expire. Then you put a "bubble" on them for 10% of their hp and get credited with 0 healing.

05/01/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Tiberria
AV is only relevant if a player would have hit 0 HP if they did not have the AV buff on them. If that doesn't happen, the AV buff has no impact whatsoever.


I know you dont feel that way about priest or pally bubbles. AV is mechanically exact to a bubble from those classes so your argument here makes no sense.

**Please understand that I'm not saying L2P NOOB shamans are fine. I just think that if the "bubble" provided by shamans showed up on logs we could then lay the entirety of shaman healing out on the table and have a more acurate discussion.

I also understand that getting a grasp of how much AV is actually contributing to Shaman output is incredibly difficult since it gets convoluted by healing from other people. AV stands as a great example as to why healing meters don't tell the whole story.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
05/01/2013 02:54 PMPosted by Ðrakthar
If you were to argue that AV needs to be part of HPS output, then things like PW:Fortitude would also have to be, because they are essentially the exact same mechanic - just a health pool increase.


A max health increase that doesn't diminish health to a percentage after it fades (PW: Fortitude) is mechanically exact to a bubble with the added benefit that other healers can sort of refresh it. It essentially puts a buff on your target that allows up to 10% overhealing as a "bubble".

05/01/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Tiberria
On top of that, AV would be capped at a maximum of 10% additional output from its very design.


True, untill you heal someone at full hp with the buff about to expire. Then you put a "bubble" on them for 10% of their hp and get credited with 0 healing.

05/01/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Tiberria
AV is only relevant if a player would have hit 0 HP if they did not have the AV buff on them. If that doesn't happen, the AV buff has no impact whatsoever.


I know you dont feel that way about priest or pally bubbles. AV is mechanically exact to a bubble from those classes so your argument here makes no sense.

**Please understand that I'm not saying L2P NOOB shamans are fine. I just think that if the "bubble" provided by shamans showed up on logs we could then lay the entirety of shaman healing out on the table and have a more acurate discussion.

I also understand that getting a grasp of how much AV is actually contributing to Shaman output is incredibly difficult since it gets convoluted by healing from other people. AV stands as a great example as to why healing meters don't tell the whole story.


You don't understand basic game concepts.

A buff that increases your HP is not a bubble, is not an absorb, and is not remotely the same thing. AV does not absorb damage. It does not prevent damage from being taken. It does not prevent a player's health percentage from dropping, therefore allowing smart heals to redirect to another target. Therefore, it is not an absorb.

It is also 100% useless on a target that isn't dropping within 10% of dying, and provides nothing of value in that situation. 90%+ of AV buffs are by definition useless. Any damage that target takes between 100% and 10% needs to be healed up, or at least will "soak up" smart heals from healers if that targets' HP is lower than that of other players. When you consider how much of total raid healing comes from smart heals, this is a huge factor.

It also isn't remotely hard to conceptualize the strength of AV. It is capped at 10% of your total healing. It's actually even less than that, because ES, ELW, HST and HTT all do not stack AV. Even if you counted 100% of AV as healing, we would still be way behind. When you factor in that 90% of it is useless, you can see that it is a fairly trivial piece in class balance discussions.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
05/01/2013 02:54 PMPosted by Ðrakthar
AV is mechanically exact to a bubble


Except when the "AV bubble" expires, the "damage prevented" suddenly "does damage". This is because the "AV bubble" is at the bottom of your HP, unlike Priest/Paladin bubbles. For a meter to accurately quantify the "AV bubble" it could only use the damage "absorbed" at the bottom end of your HP.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9035
When I think about healing in a group with a Shaman and one without, AV isn't something that even crosses my mind. It's basically 10% HP on the tanks and random chunks on DPS. It's not exactly going to make up a 20%+ discrepancy in output.
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90 Goblin Shaman
10345
If you want some meaningful changes to be made to the specialization, then here's a good start I would suggest: nerf Healing Tide Totem so that the other options within the same tier are actual options, and buff Restoration Shaman in areas where they are actually hurting, such as spread healing and mobile healing, or perhaps actually make Spirit Link Totem worth a damn.


prior to our latest hotfix there were what... 2? 3? post capped threads about ways to fix shaman throughput. They were pretty much all centered around buffing/improving things like chain heal range, healing stream, making HR move with a person or no cast time, or otherwise easier to use while moving, improving glyph of chaining, HST and the HoT portion of RT. Basically all of these are exactly what you are saying here. However, instead, we got a flat buff to our stacked healing throughput (thx bliz that was an awesome fix). We worked hard to create solutions that wouldn't significantly impact PvP. We tried to not touch raid CDs which everyone feels has been a strength of our spec. We didn't get any of this.

Can you really fault us for being worried about getting effectively nerfed (with every other raid healer getting a significant buff to their raid cd) when we are already scraping the bottom? I agree that nearly every rsham I've ever talked to would LOVE to see our toolkit improved and meaningful changes. We are just extremely worried that instead we will get a healing rain/purification buff and lose one of our ONLY legit ways of handling spread damage (HTT). And I'd be ok with HTT being "normalized" with the other talents in that tier if any of those talents helped us deal with spread damage (they dont at all) and our toolkit was improved (but it wont be).

I also don't want to enter a patch and have a 2 week period at the beginning (when honestly the healing REALLY matters on fresh content) where GC is "waiting to see what happens" when we (shamans) are significantly behind everyone else before reluctantly bringing us up to tolerably below average.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
5900
You don't understand basic game concepts.

A buff that increases your HP is not a bubble, is not an absorb, and is not remotely the same thing. AV does not absorb damage. It does not prevent damage from being taken. It does not prevent a player's health percentage from dropping, therefore allowing smart heals to redirect to another target. Therefore, it is not an absorb.


Dont take that tone with me!!! lol

I never said it was a bubble, I said it was mechanically exact to a bubble. Besides benefiting from smart heals (fair point) what exactly mechanically makes pally mastery (besides the obvious 10% cap and number of spells that effect it) so different from AV?

Ex. using numbers adjusted to AV levels...

Pally heals someone for 50k. A 5k obsorb shield is put on them.
Shaman heals someone for 50k. They get 5k Additional health.

What's so different mechanically about those 2?

05/01/2013 03:25 PMPosted by Aurinaux
Except when the "AV bubble" expires, the "damage prevented" suddenly "does damage".


When a pally bubble expires does that do damage?
Edited by Ðrakthar on 5/1/2013 4:22 PM PDT
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Pally heals someone for 50k. A 5k obsorb shield is put on them.
Shaman heals someone for 50k. They get 5k Additional health.

Imagine they take a 10k hit after that. With the Paladin bubble, you only have to heal 5k health back up. With AV, you still have to heal 10k back up. AV does not prevent any damage; it only becomes relevant if your target took enough damage for that extra 10% to actually matter; absorbs are effective at any point, on the other hand.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
5900
05/01/2013 04:32 PMPosted by Korghal
Imagine they take a 10k hit after that. With the Paladin bubble, you only have to heal 5k health back up.


You only have to heal 5k with the shaman too. This might be where the confusion is coming from.

If you dont believe me, test it for yourself.

Fall a distance great enough that you wont full heal in one go. Get in combat with somthing non threatening, like a boar outside ogrimmar. Check where your health is, check how much you heal for, and then check what your health is. Now cancel your ancestral vigor buff. The numbers will now match up
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90 Goblin Shaman
10345
Pally heals someone for 50k. A 5k obsorb shield is put on them.Shaman heals someone for 50k. They get 5k Additional health.


05/01/2013 04:32 PMPosted by Korghal
Imagine they take a 10k hit after that. With the Paladin bubble, you only have to heal 5k health back up.


also important to note that the effect is immediate with an absorb and is taken off the top (as Aurinaux said) so the bubble is much less likely to get wasted before its duration expires. Whereas a shaman's value is only on the bottom (saving someone the last 10% if you had max AV up) and the buff resets if the target doesn't receive healing from a shaman in the near future. So unless you overheal specifically to keep AV up (and this isn't even always possible because of spread mechanics and trying to keep it up on the entire raid is just a lower priority than just about any other healing) this buff will more often than not just naturally reset/wear off without having any beneficial impact.

Really the only time this buff is useful (outside of tanks and it should generally be refreshed on tanks) is on fights like the last phase of Iron Qon or Beth'tilac or any other soft enrage mechanic that requires stacked AoE healing... in these situations you can keep the buff rolling with healing rain and if the pulse stacks up enough, people will actually dip sub 10% (especially during progression kills). This type of fight is generally our strong suit anyway and won't help with our problems.

To put it in perspective... lets take heroic Jinkroth. Lets say that prior to lightning storm your disc priest/hpal is able to spread some bubbles... maybe they aren't max strength because of being used prior but whatever bubble is left... will carry over into the lightning phase. During the lightning phase the bubble will tick off and be used... even if the pally/priest doesn't cast a single heal on that target for the duration of the storm. Instead if the rsham diligently stacked AV going into storm, if the target didn't receive a direct heal from the shaman... by the end of the storm AV will run out, maybe even right before that killshot from a lightning ball. The bubble very easily could've saved that player and AV did nothing even though you spent the ENTIRE Fight up to that point stacking it.
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