Shaman need compensation for DH/Tran/Rev buff

90 Pandaren Monk
12990


HTT is filling exactly the same role in the Shaman toolkit as Divine Hymn, Tranq, and Revival fill. It is irrelevant that it is a talent; the bottom line is, they have designed it, allowed it to become a mandatory talent, and basically balanced Shaman healing around it. Shaman output is 100% balanced around using HTT effectively and on near CD. It has overshadowed and essentially replaced SLT since it was introduced, because SLT is so weak in any situation outside of Spine-like gimmick debuffs. It is also logical for Shaman to have a 2nd raid cooldown given the absence of a tank cooldown.

You can't buff everything else that fills the same role as HTT, including buffing the cooldowns of healers that are already significantly ahead of Shaman, ignore Shaman completely and not expect there to be a major class balance issue created by this.


So rather than maybe advocating fixing the other 2 talents and maybe fixing your healing in other ways you'd rather just overbuff HTT and make it inherently against Blizzard's talent tree design?


Or they could make it baseline like every other similar CD. It's not like they haven't done that with several other talents before.

What Sensations said is absolutely correct. RShaman is balanced around taking HTT by default except in very specific situations where AG outperforms it. You say that making talents mandatory to take is against Blizzard's design intent, but that's already the case so the point is moot.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12595
No, Ascendance is (obviously) the Shaman version of Incarnation. It's a personal throughput cooldown with different buffs for all three specs.

HTT is the Shaman version of Tranq. It's their raid-saving cooldown. Again, obviously.

Just because some specs get their raid CD baseline and have to talent for their personal CD, and others get their personal CD baseline and have to talent for their raid CD, and still others get both baseline doesn't mean that you can't clearly define which abilities are raid CDs and which are personal throughput CDs.

Raid CDs:
Tranq, HTT, SLT, Divine Hymn, Barrier, Devo Aura, Revival, Zen Meditation

Personal CDs:
Incarnation, Ascendance, Power Infusion, Avenging Wrath, GoAK, Divine Favor

Raid CDs are abilities that just do stuff on their own. They're either really big heals or DRs. Personal throughput CDs buff your other spells - they don't do anything on their own. The division is completely obvious. And HTT is obviously in the first group.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
13095


So rather than maybe advocating fixing the other 2 talents and maybe fixing your healing in other ways you'd rather just overbuff HTT and make it inherently against Blizzard's talent tree design?


Or they could make it baseline like every other similar CD. It's not like they haven't done that with several other talents before.

What Sensations said is absolutely correct. RShaman is balanced around taking HTT by default except in very specific situations where AG outperforms it. You say that making talents mandatory to take is against Blizzard's design intent, but that's already the case so the point is moot.


I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong here. Blizzard messed up BIG TIME with that tier. Their attempts to correct it have so far failed. But is that a reason to make the situation worse?
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
04/22/2013 04:36 PMPosted by Juvenate
Blizzard messed up BIG TIME with that tier.


Again, the fact that blizzard screwed the pooch on a talent tier is kind of a terrible, perhaps deeply stupid even, reason not to provide 25 person resto shaman with the same buff being provided to H priests, druids, and monks.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
13095
I'm not going to really argue anymore since I've stated my opinion already. Just keep in mind there is a REASON Healing Tide Totem was left out. It wasn't forgotten.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
I'm not going to really argue anymore since I've stated my opinion already. Just keep in mind there is a REASON Healing Tide Totem was left out. It wasn't forgotten.


Yes. And the reasons GC gave in his tweet are f***ing stupid.
Reply Quote
I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong here. Blizzard messed up BIG TIME with that tier. Their attempts to correct it have so far failed. But is that a reason to make the situation worse?

Making HTT scale for 25m will make the tier "worse" in terms of versatility, but given their fail attempts at making AG/Conductivity good for Resto they might as well forget they exist and balance us properly around HTT until they finally decide to make it baseline as it should have been since the start; this includes giving it the scaling ability they are giving to DH/Tranq as well. If anything, doing so might at least attract Enh and Ele to take HTT for once in 25 man at least, unless they plan to adjust AG just like VE, which will put things in the same place.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105


Or they could make it baseline like every other similar CD. It's not like they haven't done that with several other talents before.

What Sensations said is absolutely correct. RShaman is balanced around taking HTT by default except in very specific situations where AG outperforms it. You say that making talents mandatory to take is against Blizzard's design intent, but that's already the case so the point is moot.


I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong here. Blizzard messed up BIG TIME with that tier. Their attempts to correct it have so far failed. But is that a reason to make the situation worse?


How is it going to make it worse? Blizzard messed up big time with Shaman talent tiers period. Outside of deciding what survivability CD you want, there really isn't an interesting choice in the entire tree. Healing Tide is a no brainer. Primal Elementalist vs Unleashed Fury is a no brainer depending on what you are doing on the fight. Ancestral Swiftness vs Elemental Mastery is a no brainer depending on where you stand to haste breakpoints.

The awful design of the Shaman talent tier has been pointed out since Beta, and at this point, we just need to get through the way it is and hope for an overhaul next expansion. On top of that, it doesn't matter whatsoever if the ability is a talent or a baseline ability. Classes are balanced around their total package, not balanced around their total package excluding talents, and talents are not balanced seperately across classes. The bottom line is, it is mandatory for Resto in 99% of situations, Resto output is dependent and designed around HTT (I would argue we are more chained to this CD and its output than any other healer), and balance has to be made around assuming it is there.

HTT fills the exact same niche and role for Shaman as Tranq, DH and Revival fill. We have a second CD in SLT, but also are the only class that lacks a tank cooldown. You can not balance Shaman around being at or near the bottom of the throughput totem pole, buff all abilities that serve the same purpose as HTT by a ridiculous and unwarranted 240%, and then not expect there to be a major issue with class balance and throughput.

It also guts our burst relative to that of other healers, because we now have 40% of a raid CD, and 50% of a damage reduction CD (SLT is half the reduction of AM and less than half the reduction of Barrier). That burst was one of the reasons lower output was justified, and that causes our raid utility to take a huge hit. On top of that, a huge percentage of Shaman output comes from HR ticking on a low health raid (gaining high mastery bonuses). By buffing the raid CDs of Priests, Druids and MW to ridiculous levels, the raid will be topped off faster, we will get less out of our mastery, less out of our stacked healing, and our output will probably drop off more relative to other healers than just the amount of buffs they are getting alone. The 5.3 situation will be worse than it was at the start of 5.2.

The reason why Shaman are angry is because the justification given for not buffing HTT was ridiculous. Saying they didn't buff it because it was a talent would be about as intelligible as not buffing Tranq because it is baseline for other druid specs. On top of that, they obviously have a huge misconception of 25 man healer balance. Shaman are fairly weak, and only possibly better than Druids right now. With these ridiculous buffs to other classes, we will be dead last by a huge margin if something isn't done to compensate.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
aus
19035
We have a healing cooldown that, after the changes will be doing 40% of what the other healing cooldowns are doing. We also have a damage reduction cooldown that is position limited, duration limited (only 6 seconds), and only does half the damage reduction of similar cooldowns.


Our Damage reduction is position limited, duration limited(6 seconds) and not effective on all types of damage, we don't have an aoe healing cooldown and we just got a bunch of nerfs(probably well deserved).

But you can't just trot of a list things identical to other classes and say we need buffs before of these. Personally I think overall shaman throughput needs a buff, but your cooldowns are very good.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
04/22/2013 05:57 PMPosted by Mate
We have a healing cooldown that, after the changes will be doing 40% of what the other healing cooldowns are doing. We also have a damage reduction cooldown that is position limited, duration limited (only 6 seconds), and only does half the damage reduction of similar cooldowns.


Our Damage reduction is position limited, duration limited(6 seconds) and not effective on all types of damage, we don't have an aoe healing cooldown and we just got a bunch of nerfs(probably well deserved).

But you can't just trot of a list things identical to other classes and say we need buffs before of these. Personally I think overall shaman throughput needs a buff, but your cooldowns are very good.


Devo Aura is absolutely NOT range limited. It has a 40 yard range, which is the same as the range of any heal. SLT and Barrier are range limited. It not working on physical damage is an ongoing issue, but not really relevant to this tier. Your AOE healing cooldown is some combination of AW, DF and GoAK used in conjunction with spreading mastery shields all over the place. Not to mention, you have 3 tank CDs and we have 0.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17675
Personally I think overall shaman throughput needs a buff, but your cooldowns are very good.


In 10m yes, in 25m not if this goes live.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
04/22/2013 06:17 PMPosted by Sensations
Personally I think overall shaman throughput needs a buff, but your cooldowns are very good.


In 10m yes, in 25m not if this goes live.


Especially if this goes live in 25m without HTT also getting buffed. Shaman are about 5% off from the bottom in 25H as is. The healer that is behind us got a ~15% buff, and the next two closest to use in throughput got a 10% buff. On top of that, the nature of these buffs is going to further reduce the amount of low health healing/stacked healing we get because raids will be topped off faster after Rampage type abilities.

In 25 man, our throughput was barely acceptable, and we just lost 20-25% relative to all healers except Disc/Pally.
Reply Quote
100 Goblin Shaman
8700
Well, theres a few things to consider.

First, you have two raid CD's. A healing CD, and a damage reduction CD (and it does more than DR). No DR CD's are being changed.
On the other hand, all other healing CD's were buffed except yours. Your's was already easily doing 2x the other healers though, in the times where it's needed. (My ilvl 480 rsham can get 2.5mil HTT's.)

That being said, this would likely place their throughput behind others again (the buff did a lot to equalize Rsham's in 25s actually, if you aren't doing well you need to learn to adjust to fights tbh.) Should there be some compensation? Yes probably. Does it need to be a 2.5x buff like the others? That'd be completely absurd.


This is foolish, please stop.


^ this.
If anything maybe ask for HTT to become resto baseline and put a new skill in that talent slot.

(Edited cause I had a stupid moment).
Edited by Jujubiju on 4/22/2013 9:10 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I do not think buffing HTT is the right way to go but it's just my opinion.

They can mess with SLT, make Chain Heal heal more targets, fix mechanics or do other things.

Shamans have very good cooldowns and in my opinion alongside MW monks they have the best instant burst heal you could possibly ask for. As in they can dish out insane HPS very fast and efficiently. That does not mean I think they don't need buffs but just stating out my opinion.

Having said that these buffs are enormous to such cd's for the other classes.
Reply Quote
100 Troll Shaman
9850
I'm not going to really argue anymore since I've stated my opinion already. Just keep in mind there is a REASON Healing Tide Totem was left out. It wasn't forgotten.


You have 0 proof that Blizzard has a reason for why HTT was left out. Honestly given the current state of the game I would place my money on the fact that they just plain forgot.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17675
I do not think buffing HTT is the right way to go but it's just my opinion.

They can mess with SLT, make Chain Heal heal more targets, fix mechanics or do other things.

Shamans have very good cooldowns and in my opinion alongside MW monks they have the best instant burst heal you could possibly ask for. As in they can dish out insane HPS very fast and efficiently. That does not mean I think they don't need buffs but just stating out my opinion.

Having said that these buffs are enormous to such cd's for the other classes.


The problem is 10m doesn't really need the buffs. They overbuffed these cooldowns for 25m, so how will they balance Shaman if they can't buff us cause of 10m? They're creating a problem that is pretty bad to do mid-expansion because the change is beyond huge.
Edited by Sensations on 4/22/2013 6:29 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
04/22/2013 06:26 PMPosted by Mera
I'm not going to really argue anymore since I've stated my opinion already. Just keep in mind there is a REASON Healing Tide Totem was left out. It wasn't forgotten.


You have 0 proof that Blizzard has a reason for why HTT was left out. Honestly given the current state of the game I would place my money on the fact that they just plain forgot.


Here is what GC said about it.

"We don't think Resto needs the buff in 25s, and we are loathe to make a popular talent even more popular."
"I see where you're coming from, but arguing us to buff a talent everyone already takes is going against our design intent."
"Debating it, but shaman have the opposite problem where they are proportionately stronger in 25s. HTT is also a talent."

He is willfully blind if he thinks Shaman will be fine in 25 man once these changes go live, but is pretty stuck on using the idiotic talent excuse not to buff it. Which is fine, I am fine with them not buffing the talent. However, I am not fine with them giving ridiculous and unwarranted buffs to other healing specs (that we are barely competitive with) without compensating us for the lost throughput and loss of relative utility.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I do not think buffing HTT is the right way to go but it's just my opinion.

They can mess with SLT, make Chain Heal heal more targets, fix mechanics or do other things.

Shamans have very good cooldowns and in my opinion alongside MW monks they have the best instant burst heal you could possibly ask for. As in they can dish out insane HPS very fast and efficiently. That does not mean I think they don't need buffs but just stating out my opinion.

Having said that these buffs are enormous to such cd's for the other classes.


The problem is 10m doesn't really need the buffs. They overbuffed these cooldowns for 25m, so how will they balance Shaman if they can't buff us cause of 10m? They're creating a problem that is pretty bad to do mid-expansion because the change is beyond huge.


This is true.

They could extend the cap for HTT but I guess that is under debate. Increasing Chain Heal target healing to 5 would not be a deal breaker but it would be a buff.

Or they could make CH heal for the same amount every jump. I do not think considering its cast time it's not a bad idea.

They could lower the cd on Riptide and it's mana cost. But buffing HTT outright, CH, ES, AG, GHW or HW yeah would see quick results in 10 man to be sure.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Warrior
17635
The correct course of action in the first place would be to limit the effectiveness of the uncapped cooldowns in 25 mans. Cooldowns already scale up by virtue of getting more of then when you are in a 25 man. The individual cooldowns don't also need to scale up with the group size

If they are willing to let cooldowns do different things in 25 mans, why not make it so that like, devotion aura only reduces damage by 10% in a 25 man, for example? Most 25 mans could easily use 2 of them anywhere a 10 man would use 2 (I know 2 10% reductions isn't the same as a 20% reduction, but really a 25 man has ~2.5 raid cooldowns for every 1 a 10 man has, not 2). Reigning in the strength of raid cooldowns might also help combat the situations where 25 mans do silly things like 3-4 heal fights since they can use a huge array of raid cooldowns for the high damage periods.

I guess the current change is much easier to implement though (how does one scale down SLT, for example?), and doesn't result in anyone getting weaker than they are now in an absolute sense (so that 25 mans aren't suddenly unable to kill something they did before because their cooldowns aren't as effective)
Edited by Asthas on 4/22/2013 6:40 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Worgen Druid
12675
I do not understand GC's reasoning at all. HTT absolutely needs to be compensated for if the changes go through.

If Shaman scale better upwards as a class, OK, that is good. But that should have nothing to do with how they handle a total re-working of raid CDs.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]