Shaman need compensation for DH/Tran/Rev buff

90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I do not understand GC's reasoning at all. HTT absolutely needs to be compensated for if the changes go through.


The fact that it's talent despite the overwhelming perception makes the subject up to very good debate.

If the cap is increasing it makes choosing AG or Conduc pointless. Even more than they already are, especially for 25 mans. Sure you can say it's the obvious choice because it is but I think its something Blizzard takes note of in the larger picture.

My shaman would be personally happy if they did something else than touch HTT or maybe raise the cap but not as high and buff elsewhere.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The correct course of action in the first place would be to limit the effectiveness of the uncapped cooldowns in 25 mans. Cooldowns already scale up by virtue of getting more of then when you are in a 25 man. The individual cooldowns don't also need to scale up with the group size

If they are willing to let cooldowns do different things in 25 mans, why not make it so that like, devotion aura only reduces damage by 10% in a 25 man, for example? Most 25 mans could easily use 2 of them anywhere a 10 man would use 2. Reigning in the strength of raid cooldowns might also help combat the situations where 25 mans do silly things like 3-4 heal fights since they can use a huge array of raid cooldowns for the high damage periods.


They made the change because the cooldowns scale WORSE in 25 man than 10 man. DH, Tranq and HTT on live hit 5 targets per tick regardless of how many targets are in the raid. In a 10 man, they are ticking on half the raid; in a 25 man, they are only ticking on 1/5 of the raid. In contrast, damage reduction cooldowns like Devo Aura scale directly with raid size, because a Devo Aura in a 25 man raid prevents 250% more damage than a Devo Aura in a 10 man raid. The apparent goal is to give them the same relative strength by making them tick on about half the raid in 25 man, like they do in 10 man.
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90 Worgen Druid
11960
I guess I should have said one of his reasons.

On one hand he speaks of scaling. Then on the other not making a talent mandatory. When you start throwing our multiple unrelated reasons, it is a red flag to me.

To me it just sounds like they have not thought it through.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17225
To me it just sounds like they have not thought it through.


^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a summary of like 90% of the decisions of the developers during this expansion.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
16175
The correct course of action in the first place would be to limit the effectiveness of the uncapped cooldowns in 25 mans. Cooldowns already scale up by virtue of getting more of then when you are in a 25 man. The individual cooldowns don't also need to scale up with the group size

If they are willing to let cooldowns do different things in 25 mans, why not make it so that like, devotion aura only reduces damage by 10% in a 25 man, for example? Most 25 mans could easily use 2 of them anywhere a 10 man would use 2. Reigning in the strength of raid cooldowns might also help combat the situations where 25 mans do silly things like 3-4 heal fights since they can use a huge array of raid cooldowns for the high damage periods.


They made the change because the cooldowns scale WORSE in 25 man than 10 man. DH, Tranq and HTT on live hit 5 targets per tick regardless of how many targets are in the raid. In a 10 man, they are ticking on half the raid; in a 25 man, they are only ticking on 1/5 of the raid. In contrast, damage reduction cooldowns like Devo Aura scale directly with raid size, because a Devo Aura in a 25 man raid prevents 250% more damage than a Devo Aura in a 10 man raid. The apparent goal is to give them the same relative strength by making them tick on about half the raid in 25 man, like they do in 10 man.


Uhh, you kinda just restated what I said? I said the problem WAS the cooldowns that scale up with the number of targets. That results in double scaling because the individual cooldowns get more powerful AND you get more of them. That is why I suggested that things like devotion aura reduce less damage on a 25 man, so that their absolute benefit is similar between the raid difficulties.

On the other hand, tranq only hitting 5 people isn't really a problem in a 25 man, because you can easily use 2-3 of them (or similar cooldowns) wherever a 10 man would use 1. Its only a problem because you have things like devotion aura having double scaling.

To put it another way, things like devotion aura would be like if they removed exhaustion from heroism. Then heroism affects more people in a 25 man and would have way more of them. It seems like devotion aura (and related effects) are the real problem, not tranq (and related effects).
Edited by Asthas on 4/22/2013 6:45 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
I would say it's a design related note despite the fact there are a lot of exceptions.

I think the main culprit is that HTT is a talent of choice and not a talent you gain regardless.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
04/22/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Marathel
I do not understand GC's reasoning at all. HTT absolutely needs to be compensated for if the changes go through.


The fact that it's talent despite the overwhelming perception makes the subject up to very good debate.

If the cap is increasing it makes choosing AG or Conduc pointless. Even more than they already are, especially for 25 mans. Sure you can say it's the obvious choice because it is but I think its something Blizzard takes note of in the larger picture.

My shaman would be personally happy if they did something else than touch HTT or maybe raise the cap but not as high and buff elsewhere.


Choosing AG and especially Conductivity is already pointless and has been pointless since the new talents went live (gimmick fights like Tsulong are rare exceptions). For any other PvE raiding situation, 99.9% of resto shaman are taking HTT anyway. Arguing for talent diversity is just lip service at this point; Shaman are and have to be balanced around having HTT. It fills exactly the same role as Tranq and DH. If this causes Blizzard too much conceptual disconnect, they should make it Resto baseline and replace it with a different talent that is better balanced with the other 2.

I would also argue that Shaman actually have worse gear scaling than other healers, because of how impacted the value of our mastery is by overhealing/overgearing content, the fact that 25 man Resto Shaman are pretty much forced to go with high spirit builds, and the fact that the nature of our mastery means that it tends to outscale INT on output that actually matters.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
On the other hand, tranq only hitting 5 people isn't really a problem in a 25 man, because you can easily use 2-3 of them (or similar cooldowns) wherever a 10 man would use 1.


This true partly.

Considering Symb tranq is very weak and tranq from the other druid classes are on 8 min its different and lesser.

And its not equal amidst classes.

Ele Shaman's AG can be very amazing and the healing it can pump out very higher than a tranq from a boomy ever could. And its 1/4th the cd.
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90 Troll Shaman
9785
04/22/2013 06:31 PMPosted by Tiberria


You have 0 proof that Blizzard has a reason for why HTT was left out. Honestly given the current state of the game I would place my money on the fact that they just plain forgot.


Here is what GC said about it.

"We don't think Resto needs the buff in 25s, and we are loathe to make a popular talent even more popular."
"I see where you're coming from, but arguing us to buff a talent everyone already takes is going against our design intent."
"Debating it, but shaman have the opposite problem where they are proportionately stronger in 25s. HTT is also a talent."

He is willfully blind if he thinks Shaman will be fine in 25 man once these changes go live, but is pretty stuck on using the idiotic talent excuse not to buff it. Which is fine, I am fine with them not buffing the talent. However, I am not fine with them giving ridiculous and unwarranted buffs to other healing specs (that we are barely competitive with) without compensating us for the lost throughput and loss of relative utility.


Look, everyone here knows Streetwalker doesn't do anything except use up Blizzard's funds to whiten his teeth. That was probably some PR dude on his twitter account.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
16175
04/22/2013 06:44 PMPosted by Marathel
On the other hand, tranq only hitting 5 people isn't really a problem in a 25 man, because you can easily use 2-3 of them (or similar cooldowns) wherever a 10 man would use 1.


This true partly.

Considering Symb tranq is very weak and tranq from the other druid classes are on 8 min its different and lesser.

And its not equal amidst classes.

Ele Shaman's AG can be very amazing and the healing it can pump out very higher than a tranq from a boomy ever could. And its 1/4th the cd.


Yea, but a 25 man also tends to have more shadow priests/non-resto druids/elemental shaman/warriors/etc. When a 10 man has their shadow priest do a sym tranq, a 25 man could do that and have a feral tranq and probably something else too. The number of cooldowns available to a 25 man roughly scales with the group size, both the minor and major ones. They don't also need to also scale with the number of targets.
Edited by Asthas on 4/22/2013 6:50 PM PDT
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04/22/2013 06:33 PMPosted by Marathel
They could extend the cap for HTT but I guess that is under debate. Increasing Chain Heal target healing to 5 would not be a deal breaker but it would be a buff.

Not by much. There is a reason the Firelands 4p was changed from one additional CH jump to "CH no longer consumes Riptide". Due to the 30% reduction per jump, a fifth jump is beyond garbage.

Or they could make CH heal for the same amount every jump. I do not think considering its cast time it's not a bad idea.

That's something many of us wish was done to CH. The jump reduction makes very little sense in today's word. This isn't Wrath were CH was healing for bejeezus levels until 4.0.1 neutered it.

If the cap is increasing it makes choosing AG or Conduc pointless. Even more than they already are, especially for 25 mans. Sure you can say it's the obvious choice because it is but I think its something Blizzard takes note of in the larger picture.

While that is true, their attempts at making AG/Conductivity good for Resto have been poor at best. Many talents and glyphs through this expansion that have been completely mandatory (whether for the whole class or just one spec) have become baseline and usually replaced with another option due to how core they became to the specs (see: rouges and Prep), yet Shaman's tier of HTT/AG/CC has not been adjusted despite pitiful buffs that did not make us reconsider them. I recall some GC twitts even mentioning that they were wary of touching HTT because how dependant of it our output has become, yet nothing has been done to really address that big flaw.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
They can't really nerf/unlink us from HTT because
(1) Resto output is really dependent on it. We need to use it and use it effectively on near CD, or our output is garbage (not that it's amazing with it).
(2) If you gut it to the point AG and Conductivity are viable options, we need a significant throughput buff. They don't want to buff anything that affects PvP, (so Riptide and the single target direct heals are out), so they would be stuck buffing CH and HR again.

Thus, we are probably stuck with HTT being mandatory and a core part of our spec at least until next expansion. The only other option they really have is a complete mastery rework so that PvE buffs aren't so detrimental to PvP balance.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
Buffing Riptide output by its ticks and decreasing its mana cost wouldn't be bad at all. Have it cost about 8000 mana and increase the tick portion would be a safe buff in my opinion.

The safest buffs I see in my opinion is this

1)CH healing reduction removed.

2)CH target increase to 5 and healing reduction reduced by a good amount

3)Riptide mana cost decreased, initial heal slightly increased, HOT portion good buff increased.

4)HR healing cap increased

5)HTT target cap increased BUT not to 15 yet compensate by any of the buffs above as well.

6)Straight buff to HR and CH but it would be dangerous in 10 man.

7)Reduce cast time of CH

8)Allow ES to stack on same target and change effects to actually be a buff.
Edited by Marathel on 4/22/2013 7:05 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The safest buff is just to turn up their nose at their whiny "not within our design intent" excuses crap, bit the bullet, and buff HTT to keep us scaling at the same level as the other healers. Changing Riptide carries PvP implications, and messing around heavily with the mechanics of Chain Heal mid-expansion is risky, and potentially will further impact the 10 vs 25 split.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
The best thing they can do, is scrap this horrible idea.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
Target cap HTT increase? Yes it would be the simplest thing but a number buff to HTT would be very unwise because it would impact the 10vs25 split. No doubt about it.

HTT is one of the few cds you hit and you can watch health bars go back without doing much else. Yes its a different story in HM's but its still very powerful.

I disagree changing Riptide. It's interaction with Earthliving(if I'm saying that correctly) perhaps. But Holy Paladins EF x3 on themselves many thought it would be overkill but it hasn't been.

You're looking at about 18k tick per second with a ramp up time of 12 secs or 18 secs or if u get holy power faster then faster it can be up. Resto Shamans in PVP...I may be wrong but Riptide isnt what made them so formidable in the past and as of late.

CH yes but they removed the damage reduction for ele CL. It turned out pretty dang well without it being overkill. I really think removing the healing reduction would be a pretty good test.

I think these changes might be adjusted but I honestly doubt they will go away.
Edited by Marathel on 4/22/2013 7:13 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
The best thing they can do, is scrap this horrible idea.


Yeah, increasing the scaling of the Tranq type cooldowns is unwarranted and will be ridiculous. However, it is probably more likely this crap will go live, the Shaman concerns will be ignored, and we will be more behind than we were at the start of 5.2. Then, they will probably just throw their hands in the air and buff Healing Rain again because they are afraid to touch anything else.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Target cap HTT increase? Yes it would be the simplest thing but a number buff to HTT would be very unwise because it would impact the 10vs25 split. No doubt about it.

HTT is one of the few cds you hit and you can watch health bars go back without doing much else. Yes its a different story in HM's but its still very powerful.

I disagree changing Riptide. It's interaction with Earthliving(if I'm saying that correctly) perhaps. But Holy Paladins EF x3 on themselves many thought it would be overkill but it hasn't been.

You're looking at about 18k tick per second with a ramp up time of 12 secs or 18 secs or if u get holy power faster then faster it can be up. Resto Shamans in PVP...I may be wrong but Riptide isnt what made them so formidable in the past and as of late.

CH yes but they removed the damage reduction for ele CL. It turned out pretty dang well without it being overkill. I really think removing the healing reduction would be a pretty good test.

I think these changes might be adjusted but I honestly doubt they will go away.


The changes they are making to Tranq, DH, and Revival are already doing the same thing that you describe to the 10/25 split. Doing any of these changes may be a terrible idea, but making these changes to the "tranq like abilities" of 3 classes and leaving a fourth holding the bag is the height of idiocy. Either all of the buffs should be scrapped, or they need to give HTT the same treatment.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
04/22/2013 07:14 PMPosted by Tiberria
The best thing they can do, is scrap this horrible idea.


Yeah, increasing the scaling of the Tranq type cooldowns is unwarranted and will be ridiculous. However, it is probably more likely this crap will go live, the Shaman concerns will be ignored, and we will be more behind than we were at the start of 5.2. Then, they will probably just throw their hands in the air and buff Healing Rain again because they are afraid to touch anything else.


I'm more worried about the ramifications this can cause. Just thinking of the balancing issues and the future problems this will cause. It's not needed, 25m already scales up with cooldowns just by the sheer number of players.
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90 Goblin Shaman
17725
i'd also love for the CH glyph to become baseline, and the 4sec cd removed. i want to punch kittens being forced to dance around ch/riptide cd's while woefully staring at 2 measly stacks of tidal waves.

hell, maybe have tidal waves work more like harmony does for druids. or let it stack past 2. or something that actually gives us healing synergy.

SLT extended range and/or duration. bump up cd to 5 mins for all i care, since it's almost never used on CD as it is with it's ridiculous positioning requirements.
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