Shaman need compensation for DH/Tran/Rev buff

90 Draenei Shaman
17105
First off, SLT is a major raid stabilizing tool, of equal or stronger power than barrier because t makes all AoE heals stronger (less overheal.) the only thing it is worse at is surviving a single big hit.
Second, revival buff is still in the patch notes, stop saying its removed and they're trying to buff certain classes. They're trying to make healers in 25m without real raid CDs...have raid CDs. At the moment, DR effects scale in 25s but throughput doesn't as has been mentioned. Either throughput should be buffed or DR be nerfed to be fair. They chose to buff throughput, I fail to see that big of a problem.
Third, our rsham has highly competitive healing on fights where healing rain can be used effectively, as well as the utility of being very strong when the healing is needed + tons of raid CDs and MTT.


The health redistribution of SLT is highly overrated and is nearly useless 95% of the time. In situations where SLT is typically used in a 25 man raid (P4 of Iron Qon, Rampage on Megaera, etc), the entire raid is taking lots of damage. The overhealing factor doesn't mean much in those situations; people are generally not topped. The fact that it levels off HP makes it look really strong on raid frames because its very visually noticable, but the actual value of it is dubious at best outside of fight gimmicks that allow it to bypass healing debuffs. The real value of SLT is the 10% damage reduction, which is half as strong as any other DR cooldown, plus is sadded to a short duration and positional requirements.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
18260
First off, SLT is a major raid stabilizing tool, of equal or stronger power than barrier because t makes all AoE heals stronger (less overheal.) the only thing it is worse at is surviving a single big hit.
Second, revival buff is still in the patch notes, stop saying its removed and they're trying to buff certain classes. They're trying to make healers in 25m without real raid CDs...have raid CDs. At the moment, DR effects scale in 25s but throughput doesn't as has been mentioned. Either throughput should be buffed or DR be nerfed to be fair. They chose to buff throughput, I fail to see that big of a problem.
Third, our rsham has highly competitive healing on fights where healing rain can be used effectively, as well as the utility of being very strong when the healing is needed + tons of raid CDs and MTT.
I'm of mixed opinion on whether they should be compensated for this buff but I can see why they haven't been yet.
I'm not of the opinion that rsham are weak, and I love having one in our raid. Being top on meters doesn't matter when you have smart heals and utility galore.


LOL

I don't think shaman are crying because we aren't number 1 on the meters, we're pissed that our tool kit breaks when there is movement and highly spread situations. We also do not shine on the niche fights where we should, heroic Maegara for example, I can't compete with a skilled holy paladin and disc priest due to the absorbs even though in theory I should be the strongest on that fight.

The "resto shaman have utility therefore they can be broken" argument is old, tired and frankly bull!@#$.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105


The "resto shaman have utility therefore they can be broken" argument is old, tired and frankly bull!@#$.


The utility that we have is made mediocre by these ridiculous cooldown buffs or nearly obsolete by gear scaling and legendary meta gems.

Here is the problem with throughput. This is 25H Spec Score, based on all parses (not just top 100). RaidBots says that Spec Score is the best measure, because it normalizes out certain specs being extremely strong or weak on individual fights.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25H/all/14/60/avg/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

Disc Priest - 92.7
Mistweaver - 91.5
Holy Pally - 91.5
Holy Priest - 89.5
Resto Shaman - 83.0
Resto Druid - 82.4

With how things are on live, the top 4 healers are within 5% of each other, and both Druids and Shaman are about 15% behind.

Now, let's look at the 5.3 changes, and what it will likely do to this picture.
-Druid output should increase by at least 15% with the Tranq and WM buffs
-Holy Priest and Mistweaver output should both go up by about 8% with the DH/Revival buffs
-The attonement nerfs and the nerfs to Paladin mastery/T14 4pc will probably bring both specs down by about 5%, but it's equally likely that the new super cooldowns will result in more sniping of HoTs/direct heals and absorbs at worst staying at the same strength as they are. I don't expect any major output decrease.
-Shaman output will decrease, because people will be topped off way faster, causing more Healing Rain overheal, and diminishing the value of our Mastery. It's likely at least a 5% output decrease.

Here is what the new expected healing balance would be:

Mistweaver - 98.8
Druid - 94.8
Holy Priest - 96.7
Disc Priest - 92.7
Holy Pally - 91.5
Resto Shaman - 78.9

I don't see how people can be denying how this is not a huge problem. Even GC was blindly tweeting that "we think Shaman are fine" yesterday. The issue is, with our burst being stomped all over by stronger Tranq/DH/Revivals and our MTT being rendered less significant by regen scaling, we no longer have the utility/tools to excuse what is likely to be massively subpar throughput in 5.3.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
-The attonement nerfs and the nerfs to Paladin mastery/T14 4pc will probably bring both specs down by about 5%, but it's equally likely that the new super cooldowns will result in more sniping of HoTs/direct heals and absorbs at worst staying at the same strength as they are. I don't expect any major output decrease.


In some fights it will be more than that. In fights with stacked phases I could say it might be even lower due to the daybreak change and the fact that we will be able to sustain a better aoe rotation. But how much exactly will have to be seen.

The T152P heroic plus the 4p, PLUS Holy Avenger will be significantly more powerful come 5.3.
Edited by Marathel on 4/27/2013 11:39 AM PDT
Reply Quote
So SLT is only good for the 10% damage reduction?

I thought it was used mostly to stabilize one persons health (probably tank) bringing them instantly from near dead to ~60% and the damage reduction was just icing.

Or what you are saying is that there are not enough situations where that happens and the 10% damage reduction is all you get out of it most of the time?
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
HC
19310
So SLT is only good for the 10% damage reduction?

I thought it was used mostly to stabilize one persons health (probably tank) bringing them instantly from near dead to ~60% and the damage reduction was just icing.

Or what you are saying is that there are not enough situations where that happens and the 10% damage reduction is all you get out of it most of the time?


It's a gimmick that is highly situational for full effect. ;p
Edited by Sensations on 4/27/2013 11:59 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
So SLT is only good for the 10% damage reduction?

I thought it was used mostly to stabilize one persons health (probably tank) bringing them instantly from near dead to ~60% and the damage reduction was just icing.

Or what you are saying is that there are not enough situations where that happens and the 10% damage reduction is all you get out of it most of the time?


In a 25 man raid, you would almost never use SLT for that purpose, because every other healer except Shaman have real tank CDs that are significantly stronger and that don't run the risk of gibbing other people standing in the SLT.

It really is an awful, weak, limited cooldown that should be either reworked or removed. Uninformed people just have this concept of it being so strong because
(1) They remember how game breaking it was on Spine - because of a gimmick
(2) The health leveling when you drop SLT is very visually noticable on raid frames. It just doesn't really do very much to actually save people.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
16280
In a 25 man raid, you would almost never use SLT for that purpose, because every other healer except Shaman have real tank CDs that are significantly stronger and that don't run the risk of gibbing other people standing in the SLT.


It's really funny when it does though. Using SLT to effectively kill off certain raid members has really been the highlight of this expansion. It's like having DI again. /memories
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
14140
All the Shamans underselling SLT is a bit overboard.

There are quite a few mechanics in the game that combine both AOE AND spike damage. This is where SLT shines, even if it only can cover a single grouping like melee. SLT can prevent deaths from that spike or non-aoe damage, particularly when it is combined/overlapped with raid-wide AOE which might lower HP to dangerous levels (that precarious "gib range").

Examples of usage of SLT in this way, for just this tier:

Jin'Rohk: Can be used while standing in the puddle to avoid deaths from focused lightning damage spikes, as a result of it being spawned/kited near the raid during static burst/wound.

Horridon: It can prevent deaths from from multiple mechanics (rending charge, deadly plague, sand traps, frozen orbs.. etc..) that have limited damage spikes, in combination with Dire Calls. Melee clumps are the obvious choice, since range will/should be spread.

Heroic Council of elders: Can be used on melee or a range grouping during discharge/dark power/twisted fate to reduces deaths from a range of spike damage mechanics, including sand bolt, reckless charges, and frosbite/biting cold spawns.

Ji-Kun: Use on melee during quills to prevent spike damage deaths from cheeps and pool spawns/slimed.

Durumu: Can prevent deaths during maze running, usage on the initial entry and during (if you have multiple Shaman) the running if a tight spot is encountered. Just downed this on heroic and it was helpful.

Heroic Iron Qon: Can prevent melee deaths during from a combination of Unleashed Flame and being clipped by tornadoes and/or spears.

I left off the more obvious ones, basically the mechanics that lean more on the 10% reduction, ie: Mageara and heroic Twin Consorts (Nuclear Inferno).

Also, while only 10% reduction, personal cool-downs used during it will increase that %, and effectively turn personal cool-downs into raidwide DRs. This is not not insignificant.


So while it is arguably not as good as barrier, or Devo due to the reduction, length or placement restrictions, the constant referring to it is a "gimmick" is just silly. It is far more than that, and can often be used to great effect beyond just its 10% reduction.

It does not need an encounter like Spine, or gaming it on a Mage like Cho'Gall, to make it "useful". The constant downplaying of it is disingenuous IMO, or you might just be using it poorly...
Edited by Fangthorn on 4/27/2013 1:45 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
19060
We're getting to those spirit levels where you could just spam heals with almost 80% overhealing for earthliving procs, if you're concerned about meters. I still stand by my co-healers in my raid though (shaman and druid). I'd rather have them than a holy paladin for a couple of reasons:
- If tanks are getting aced or there is a baeloroc/lei shi/durumu encounter where high tank healing is needed, a disc priest who knows how to play is as good. Beacon cleaving is easier to manage, but at the end of the day a disc priest/paladin are really close to each other with effective tank healing.
- When actual healing needs to be done, or something really bad happens, we usually live if the shaman is healing. We usually die or lose people if he's not.
- Any time we're running around, or the raid is all over the room, the druid can keep the entire raid up almost single handed. I think most of the druids crying about the sky falling are taking for granted how often these two scenarios comes up in the throne of thunder encounters.
- I can be aggressive if mana tide is in the raid. I also don't even need to triage most of the time if greater healing waves are hitting the right targets at the right time, which allows for some pretty game breaking play I wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
- If there is an aura, a dot, or something that lets hots work, there really isn't much stress on my end to spot heal people. If our druid isn't playing, there's a lot more confusion with people getting nuked at the same time or our (shaman and I) heals overlapping.
- With how good symbiosis/heart of the wild is, I'm quite surprised the top of the world 10's reduced the number of druid stacking this time around (compared to last tier).

So really, the only thing I feel like I'm missing with other classes is those times where clemancy + hand of protection would be really nice, and sometimes I feel like we could cheese some stuff with good fistweaving. But those are two variables that are really low in my mind for progression. I would never take a holy priest if a disc/holy is already present. At the 10 man level, I'd vote up Priest/Druid/Shaman every day of the week.

We're still looking for a good mage or hunter or ele shaman. Getting sick of 9 manning progression.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
We're getting to those spirit levels where you could just spam heals with almost 80% overhealing for earthliving procs, if you're concerned about meters. I still stand by my co-healers in my raid though (shaman and druid). I'd rather have them than a holy paladin for a couple of reasons:


You realize that the proc rate on ELW is only 20% on direct heals, 10% on CH and 6% on targets within Healing Rain right? It only increases on sub-35% HP targets. I can see keeping down HR on the melee at 100% HP to proc ELW and roll Ancestral Vigor, but there is no way you are getting anywhere with spamming single target on full HP targets for a 20% proc rate on a HoT that is likely to have 70% overheal.
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
19060
Oh I'm aware. All classes are going to keep moving into higher and higher overhealing. Disc has the mana right now to spam spells that go 60%-80% overhealing for minimal gains. That's just the nature of spirit scaling out of control. And with so many 1 hit raid shot mechanics, keeping people topped with hots like earthliving for the sake of stability isn't a bad practice.
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/27/2013 1:52 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
04/27/2013 01:36 PMPosted by Fangthorn
Examples of usage of SLT in this way, for just this tier:


Most of the ways of using SLT that you've listed involve it only affecting one portion of the raid. SLT definitely has its uses and benefits, but keep in mind that properly timed cooldowns like Tranq/DH also yield the same results whilst being able to target the entire raid.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
04/27/2013 02:01 PMPosted by Ceddya
Examples of usage of SLT in this way, for just this tier:


Most of the ways of using SLT that you've listed involve it only affecting one portion of the raid. SLT definitely has its uses and benefits, but keep in mind that properly timed cooldowns like Tranq/DH also yield the same results whilst being able to target the entire raid.


Not to mention that Devo Aura already affects the entire raid, and that PW:B when used in the same way as SLT is going to be over twice as effective (twice the damage reduction, 67% longer duration, same limited range, does not require a talent/character movement to place it properly). SLT is significantly inferior to every other DR cooldown in game in 95% of situations, which is a huge problem if this is used as an argument for HTT not getting buffed.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
14140
All I said was it was being undersold, and labeling it a gimmick is disingenuous

While it is not the "bees knees", saying it is only useful for fights like Spine or Cho'gall, where it can bypass mechanics, is either an example of hyperbole or not using it correctly.

And I am not comparing it to Tranq/DH, it is a separate and unique cooldown. Shaman already have HTT/AG and Ascendance.I have already said that HTT needs to be compensated for, that is a separate issue.

I guess I should clarify, I do not think SLTs existence should preclude HTT from being buffed, I was only commenting on it alone, and that I think it is more useful than portrayed in thsi thread.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
14140


Most of the ways of using SLT that you've listed involve it only affecting one portion of the raid. SLT definitely has its uses and benefits, but keep in mind that properly timed cooldowns like Tranq/DH also yield the same results whilst being able to target the entire raid.


Not to mention that Devo Aura already affects the entire raid, and that PW:B when used in the same way as SLT is going to be over twice as effective (twice the damage reduction, 67% longer duration, same limited range, does not require a talent/character movement to place it properly). SLT is significantly inferior to every other DR cooldown in game in 95% of situations, which is a huge problem if this is used as an argument for HTT not getting buffed.


But even then, you do not mention that Devo does not effect Physical damage. So for Dire Calls, Quake Stomp, Quills, Fist Smash, a DR like Devo also is left lacking (or useless) in its own right. Barrier has similar placement issues, and it is the single major raid CD for a Disc Priest.

So IMO, you are overselling some, and underselling SLT.
Edited by Fangthorn on 4/27/2013 2:25 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
04/27/2013 02:14 PMPosted by Fangthorn
And I am not comparing it to Tranq/DH, it is a separate and unique cooldown. Shaman already have HTT/AG and Ascendance.I have already said that HTT needs to be compensated for, that is a separate issue.


Oh, this is tangential, but it's clear Blizzard intends for DH/Tranq/Rev to be analogues to SLT/PW:B/Devo. With these buffs though, it's honestly time for them to reconsider removing the range or damage type restrictions on the reduction CDs, and also perhaps even the channeling requirement for the throughput CDs.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
HC
19310
All I said was it was being undersold, and labeling it a gimmick is disingenuous

While it is not the "bees knees", saying it is only useful for fights like Spine or Cho'gall, where it can bypass mechanics, is either an example of hyperbole or not using it correctly.

And I am not comparing it to Tranq/DH, it is a separate and unique cooldown. Shaman already have HTT/AG and Ascendance.I have already said that HTT needs to be compensated for, that is a separate issue.

I guess I should clarify, I do not think SLTs existence should preclude HTT from being buffed, I was only commenting on it alone, and that I think it is more useful than portrayed in thsi thread.


SLT is a pretty awesome cooldown and has its usage on every single fight(the fights we 3 heal I usually make up the CD order and to me SLT can be just as crucial as the next ability) but in many situations SLT requires more to happen for its full effect.

When you pop Devo, Tranquility, HTT, Barrier and all the like, for the full effect to happen it just needs to hit enough people and every cooldown falls to this restriction. With SLT more needs to happen for the full effect to really be noticeable. I've seen many situations where SLT will be in the order and someone will be running in with low health and get near topped instantly saving their life, but I've also seen situations where it's done nothing but a mere 10% reduction(Which is nice, it's better than nothing).

When I personally say gimmick I mean, there will be times SLT may not even seem like it's helping and others it will. I think that's perfectly fine in a cooldown and the only one that is somewhat comparable is Devo since they both have a "shortcoming" be it a type of damage or reduced reduction. What I don't like is when people oversell SLT because of the major gimmicks(Spine, Cho'gall), which surprisingly a lot of people do. Nice post about it though fangthorn ;).
Edited by Sensations on 4/27/2013 2:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
"In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature."

Wikipedia. Falls squarely into that definition from my perspective.

In a different game, SLT might be the belle of the ball, but in WoW's PvE design, it is a wonky puzzle piece. I think certain guilds that are coordinated enough could possibly utilize SLT in some spectacular display in situations with less obvious instances, but more often than not, the most rewarding path is the simpler one. If the use of SLT isn't an obvious advantage like on Yor'sahj, then it's just a disadvantage, one that particularly finds little application.

I don't really mind having a bastard cooldown as long as you have alternatives ready to perform. In such a scenario, I think it presents itself as a way to actually be unique when possible. Regardless, I still can't stand for any claim that tries to pass SLT for anything comparable.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
14930
SLT is really, really nice when paired with a Tranq.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]