Shaman need compensation for DH/Tran/Rev buff

90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Point noted, but it is somewhat an extension of an impracticality argument.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Point noted, but it is somewhat an extension of an impracticality argument.


From a 10 man perspective, maybe. From a 25 man perspective, not at all.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
From any perspective, you're gluing another healer's cooldown to mine in an attempt to justify it.

The offense is furthered when Tranq's range of availability clearly outshines SLT's--my point. SLT doesn't appear at the beginning of a cooldown map by accident.

Also, the 'no-overhealing' argument only finds any traction with Tranq because of the magnitude of healing involved. Even then, overhealing is predicated on the idea that grievous damage isn't occurring, which is likely why you would even conceive overlapping cooldowns, and the effect becomes diluted.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
From any perspective, you're gluing another healer's cooldown to mine in an attempt to justify it.

The offense is furthered when Tranq's range of availability clearly outshines SLT's--my point. SLT doesn't appear at the beginning of a cooldown map by accident.

Also, the 'no-overhealing' argument only finds any traction with Tranq because of the magnitude of healing involved. Even then, overhealing is predicated on the idea that grievous damage isn't occurring, which is likely why you would even conceive overlapping cooldowns, and the effect becomes diluted.


No, I'm saying that SLT is incredibly awesome when you pair it with Tranq. Just like Divine Hymn is incredibly awesome when you pair it with SLT. When you layer the two together during intense damage (say, the later smashes for H Iron Qon), the boost SLT gives to Tranq (and every healer's healing spells) is amazing.

Does it show on meters for SLT? No. Neither does my Barrier. You can't overheal serious progression content. If you can, then you outgear it, and it's not really "progression" content in the first place.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I don't see the impact SLT makes with Tranq/DH/HTT/etc if not to divert overhealing.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105

No, I'm saying that SLT is incredibly awesome when you pair it with Tranq. Just like Divine Hymn is incredibly awesome when you pair it with SLT. When you layer the two together during intense damage (say, the later smashes for H Iron Qon), the boost SLT gives to Tranq (and every healer's healing spells) is amazing.

Does it show on meters for SLT? No. Neither does my Barrier. You can't overheal serious progression content. If you can, then you outgear it, and it's not really "progression" content in the first place.


I think that the effect of SLT on Tranq/DH is kind of exaggerated. Both are smart heals, and are already automatically going to target the people at the lowest health. The only time that SLT is realistically going to enhance them is if there are less people below full health than the target cap (12 next patch) per tick of the ability. If that is really the case, I don't think there is enough threatening raid damage in the first place to be using 1, let alone 2 raid cooldowns at that point.

I also don't really agree that you can't/don't overheal cutting edge progression content. When I have 75% overheal on Healing Rain on the majority of progression fights, that is telling me that there isn't enough steady damage (but it is kept down anyway because of the buffs it procs and the fact that 75% OH Healing Rain still beats almost anything else ( can cast) with 5-6 healers in 25H. The healing requirement on a lot of fights is inflated by the number of healers you need for the burst phases. With these new cooldowns being able to do 7+ million healing per use and single handedly trivialize burst phases, don't be surprised if the new standard number of healers in 25 man raids is 4 instead of 5-6.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I think that the effect of SLT on Tranq/DH is kind of exaggerated. Both are smart heals, and are already automatically going to target the people at the lowest health. The only time that SLT is realistically going to enhance them is if there are less people below full health than the target cap (12 next patch) per tick of the ability. If that is really the case, I don't think there is enough threatening raid damage in the first place to be using 1, let alone 2 raid cooldowns at that point.

I also don't really agree that you can't/don't overheal cutting edge progression content. When I have 75% overheal on Healing Rain on the majority of progression fights, that is telling me that there isn't enough steady damage (but it is kept down anyway because of the buffs it procs and the fact that 75% OH Healing Rain still beats almost anything else ( can cast) with 5-6 healers in 25H. The healing requirement on a lot of fights is inflated by the number of healers you need for the burst phases. With these new cooldowns being able to do 7+ million healing per use and single handedly trivialize burst phases, don't be surprised if the new standard number of healers in 25 man raids is 4 instead of 5-6.


Break out the healing during the high-damage phases - which is what healers are brought for in the first place - and I guarantee you that you'll see a lot less overhealing for your healing rain, unless you're a complete twit and putting it in a place where no one is (or, alternatively, unless your raid leader is a twit and refuses to use you in the most effective manner possible).

Edited to Add: I'm not saying that the buffs to Tranq and DH aren't over the top. I absolutely believe they are really going to skew things in ways they should not be skewed. But I'm tired of Shaman saying, "All of our CDs suck and we can't heal anything" when that's simply not the case. I'm seeing Shaman in my guild do very, very well on many fights. We make a point to design certain strats around your strengths, quite frankly because doing so makes every other healer's job a billion times easier.
Edited by Tiriel on 4/27/2013 7:30 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105


Edited to Add: I'm not saying that the buffs to Tranq and DH aren't over the top. I absolutely believe they are really going to skew things in ways they should not be skewed. But I'm tired of Shaman saying, "All of our CDs suck and we can't heal anything" when that's simply not the case. I'm seeing Shaman in my guild do very, very well on many fights. We make a point to design certain strats around your strengths, quite frankly because doing so makes every other healer's job a billion times easier.


No, if I was a complete twit and dropping Healing Rain outside of a stacked raid, it would be doing less overhealing, because there would be no one in it to overheal in the first place :)

And, I am still seeing Healing Rain at ~50% overheal during mechanics like Rampage on Megaera (and 75%+ overall on many fights), because the amount of raid cooldowns, raid burst, and suppression through things like Spirit Shell is already that ridiculous. There is no doubt that that these cooldown buffs are going to dramatically hinder Shaman throughput.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8140
The rsham selling SLT as being gimmicky or saying that the health portion of the redirection is not very useful, blow my mind. Maybe it's because I'm in a relatively hardcore raiding environment with extremely competitive healing and because I'm a monk with virtually zero smart heals, but SLT is a massive difference in my healing capabilities, because there are often times during burst where my ReM targets are full health, and the rest of the raid isn't.

Sure, you don't like improving other healers, okay. But SLT/ascendance is very powerful when paired together anyway.

As for healing rain overhealing, when you're dropping it in melee and seeing it at high overhealing...there's likely a good number of pets being healed by it, and any blanket healer experiences the same effects if you look at WoL...but those effects are accounted for by blizzard, pet's don't actually DR the healing rain but do get healed by it.

As well as the 10% health buff for utility, which apparently no one here cares to mention. Because an extra 10% effective health to live through burst, doesn't matter, mirite?

As someone who plays most healing classes (MW is clearly my main), and who mains someone with the only utility of high burst and high personal survivability (because of CD's), I'm extremely jealous of rsham utility, because the throughput needed for most fights...is easily brought by most combinations of classes. More utility, is only brought by some classes. The fact of the matter is that every healer has different things. Rsham have the burst throughput to equal [or surpass] any other healer* (and frankly, with HTT+Ascendance, still will have the throughput to equal any other healers raid CD.) Their healing in between that is...basically eaten by absorb classes. Just like most throughput healers.

*MW played correctly can consistently out-burst rsham, though if the rsham stacked all CD's they'd probably win.

I stated at the end of my first post that I was not extremely for or against rsham being compensated as well as the other throughput healers, I merely said that I can see why I blizzard has not yet. If you are going to attack me without reading my entire post, you're ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments are not worth my time.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16470
The rsham selling SLT as being gimmicky or saying that the health portion of the redirection is not very useful, blow my mind. Maybe it's because I'm in a relatively hardcore raiding environment with extremely competitive healing and because I'm a monk with virtually zero smart heals, but SLT is a massive difference in my healing capabilities, because there are often times during burst where my ReM targets are full health, and the rest of the raid isn't.


It is gimmicky though, you should know that. You don't get the full potential of SLT unless gimmicks are involved or a situational caters to it 100%. That's not to say it's a bad cooldown, it's an amazing cooldown but the potential of it isn't reached as easily as other cooldowns is all that is being said, and it's true just due to the mechanics of it.
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90 Tauren Shaman
15120
This is two pages of niggling about adjectives used to describe SLT. Is it gimmicky? Well, ok, sure. It is powerful? Well, yeah, sometimes. Who cares.
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16470
This is two pages of niggling about adjectives used to describe SLT. Is it gimmicky? Well, ok, sure. It is powerful? Well, yeah, sometimes. Who cares.


Your tauren is ugly.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/28/2013 12:57 AMPosted by Sensations
This is two pages of niggling about adjectives used to describe SLT. Is it gimmicky? Well, ok, sure. It is powerful? Well, yeah, sometimes. Who cares.


Your tauren is ugly.


What the hell is on your face? >:| You betrayed the Master Race!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
04/28/2013 12:57 AMPosted by Sensations
This is two pages of niggling about adjectives used to describe SLT. Is it gimmicky? Well, ok, sure. It is powerful? Well, yeah, sometimes. Who cares.


Your tauren is ugly.

!!!

/slap
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90 Tauren Shaman
16540
your name is sensations, and that'd be pretty much pointless. We all know you have nothing substantial to offer.


Lets seee..... lets seeee.....

Hasn't cleared normals, no heroic kills since MSV (lel).

So lemme guess, you've got more to contribute from your position as the head of Armchair Raiders, Forum Warriors Inc, than Sensations and his heroic kills do? Not to mention the plethora of other HM raiders including myself who agree with him.

Okay, well thats just like, your opinion man.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
he only time that SLT is realistically going to enhance them is if there are less people below full health than the target cap (12 next patch) per tick of the ability. If that is really the case, I don't think there is enough threatening raid damage in the first place to be using 1, let alone 2 raid cooldowns at that point.

You can be below full health and still high enough to be overhealed by a tick of DH/Tranq (and certainly by a crit). And since player health levels in high damage phases jump up and down quite a bit, ticks routinely land when there aren't enough people low enough to get the full benefit.

SLT makes smart heals smarter, turns dumb heals like HR/PoH into smart heals, and is generally awesome. I love it. That said, it's not really equivalent to raid CDs that actually mitigate/heal large amounts of damage.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
04/28/2013 06:02 AMPosted by Kaels
he only time that SLT is realistically going to enhance them is if there are less people below full health than the target cap (12 next patch) per tick of the ability. If that is really the case, I don't think there is enough threatening raid damage in the first place to be using 1, let alone 2 raid cooldowns at that point.

You can be below full health and still high enough to be overhealed by a tick of DH/Tranq (and certainly by a crit). And since player health levels in high damage phases jump up and down quite a bit, ticks routinely land when there aren't enough people low enough to get the full benefit.

SLT makes smart heals smarter, turns dumb heals like HR/PoH into smart heals, and is generally awesome. I love it. That said, it's not really equivalent to raid CDs that actually mitigate/heal large amounts of damage.


Overheal on Divine Hymn, HTT, and Tranq is already very low from what I am seeing in 25 man logs (generally 15% or lower), and is significantly lower than overall overhealing. Revival tends to have higher overhealing because it hits everyone in range instead of being a smart heal. I can see the argument that SLT would make Revival stronger, but it likely has a minor at best interaction with DH/Tranq given how low overheal on those already is.

The buffs to DH/Tranq aren't likely to result in a lot more overhealing to DH and Tranq; what they are going to do is snipe more of the healing, resulting in overhealing on things like Healing Rain, Rejuv, Renewing Mists, etc to go way up.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
04/27/2013 11:30 PMPosted by Astråios
The rsham selling SLT as being gimmicky or saying that the health portion of the redirection is not very useful, blow my mind.


There's a lot I could say, but I'll probably refrain. Just making notes that can't be argued against with the omnipresent levels of incredulity:

04/27/2013 11:30 PMPosted by Astråios
As well as the 10% health buff for utility, which apparently no one here cares to mention. Because an extra 10% effective health to live through burst, doesn't matter, mirite?


It's been mentioned multiple times--in fact its been mentioned as the part that is most attractive, generally speaking, on the PvE stage.

Also, 10% DR is an 11.11% effective health. 20% DR is a 25% effective health increase. 25% DR is a 33.33% effective health increase.

04/27/2013 11:30 PMPosted by Astråios
but SLT is a massive difference in my healing capabilities, because there are often times during burst where my ReM targets are full health, and the rest of the raid isn't.


I think this obsession with SLT and diverting overhealing makes no meaningful impact. If it makes any impact at all, it certainly isn't a "massive" difference.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8140
To be honest, I feel like Divine Hymn/Tranq (revival is instant so I can keep using other abilities, but it's also huge overheal so arguable about how I feel about it) are pretty weak at the moment. They hardly feel like they heal the raid. I'm going to take a look at one of our recent megaera kills, and at a rampage in the middle of the fight, where the druid uses tranquility.

I'm on top, having used no CD's except TFT/Chi Brew/Chi Burst (they're up for every or every other rampage, but take that as you will.) I did 7 mil healing, or 368k HPS.

The next on the list is...our other MW monk, doing 5.8mil healing, or 305k HPS.

The third on the list is: The resto druid, who used her tranquility, and did 5mil healing, or 262k hps.

The fourth on the list is: the holy paladin, who used avenging wrath/divine favor/arcing light. (Arcing light is up for every rampage.) He did 4.6mil, or 245k HPS.

So what do we learn from this?
Tranquility hardly even feels like a cooldown.
MW monk burst is ridiculously powerful. [In actuality we suck at everything except burst/raw blanket throughput. But we're so good at those two that we dominate other healers so hard in those moments that we still top meters.]
Holy paladins can burst similar as a resto druid, while rdruid uses their iconic healing CD.
Rsham probably deserve some buffs for their inbetween-burst CD healing. (they're both rather low until their CD's kick in, and then they're right below me...haha MW burst OP.)
And last but not least...I'm curious to see logs of groups that don't heal with any MW on H25 Megaera 0.o

@Aurinaux: I often have 50%+ overhealing on my raid healing tools: Rem/uplift/chi torpedo. SLT changes that to near zero. ALA virtually doubling my output. Saying that isn't large is simply ridiculous. Even during high burst times, if I'm constantly healing, my ReM targets could easily be topped off from a luck string of uplift crits on them or other healers healing the same targets as my ReM [also because of LOLABSORBS]. Whether or not SLT meshes as well with other healers as with MW monks, I'm not 100% sure of, but there most definitely is a huge buff to MW healing from SLT in many cases. It's not as useful on every fight, I will agree with, and from that you might call it gimmicky. But in that case, so is devo aura (only magic damage) and barrier (have to stack). As such, every DR CD is gimmicky, and thus saying SLT specifically is gimmicky, means little, as it simply compares to the other DR CD's.
Edited by Astråios on 4/28/2013 10:39 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105

Holy paladins can burst similar as a resto druid, while rdruid uses their iconic healing CD.
Rsham probably deserve some buffs for their inbetween-burst CD healing. (they're both rather low until their CD's kick in, and then they're right below me...haha MW burst OP.)
And last but not least...I'm curious to see logs of groups that don't heal with any MW on H25 Megaera 0.o


If Resto Shaman throughput on a stacked raid with cooldowns is coming in below what Mistweavers are able to do baseline without being tied to 3 minute CDs (which I agree is the case - it's what I have seen too), that points to a massive problem. Resto Shaman are supposed to be ideal in this situation - a stacked raid taking heavy damage. Given how much of a penalty we incur when the raid is spread out and how little Mistweavers lose from it, we should be significantly ahead in that situation, and dominating if we are also using HTT and/or Ascendance at the same time.

The fact that we aren't even coming out on top during cooldowns indicates that either Resto Shaman throughput even in our niche is still way too low, or that other classes need to be toned down a lot.
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