Shaman need compensation for DH/Tran/Rev buff

Or, given their "buffing your talents is not our intent", we might get another HR buff! <.<

I hope next expansion healing takes a better course. MoP has been a bigger roller coaster than Cata ever was, but it just feels they rarely take the right direction.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17060
Or, given their "buffing your talents is not our intent", we might get another HR buff! <.<

I hope next expansion healing takes a better course. MoP has been a bigger roller coaster than Cata ever was, but it just feels they rarely take the right direction.


Doubt they want to buff 10m though. Welcome to what scaling up cooldowns to 25m will do!
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100 Tauren Druid
10630
i have a resto druid and a resto shaman .. im not sure if this was answered yet because i didnt wanna read all 9 pages of this thread

but yes haste does effect tranq .. it doesnt make it stronger but it does make it faster .. and since its a massive aoe stacking smart hot .. the faster it stacks the better
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90 Human Paladin
15480
Doubt they want to buff 10m though. Welcome to what scaling up cooldowns to 25m will do!


It's going to make damage scaling between 10 and 25 popcorn worthy in the first couple of weeks of 5.4.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
At this point with the patch nearing, it seems 25m shaman will have to just wait it out. If Shaman don't fall way behind in 25m they made a good decision, if they do they'll prob just buff HTT/AG in 25m.


It isn't difficult to determine what these changes will do. It's a fact that Shaman are already the weakest to second weakest healer - within a couple % of Druids, and significantly behind the other 4 in 25N and 25H.

Looking at the output on 29 H Lei Shen attempts last night, here is how big of a buff other classes are getting
Druid - 11.2% Tranquility, 6.5% Mushrooms - Total 33.3% buff. Probably even more with the range increase on Efflo and Mushrooms.
Monk - 6.5% Revival. That means this buff is a 15.6% overall buff
Holy Priest - From what I have seen from logs, Revival and Divine Hymn are about at the same level, so they likely are getting a 15% buff too.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that taking a class that is already tied for the worst output, then buffing the 3 classes above it by 33%, 15%, and 15% is going to leave Shaman massively screwed, especially if this extra burst output scales down our mastery gain and stacked throughput by a greater proportion than that of other healers (which I think is likely).

Simple napkin math says 25 man Resto Shaman are going to be the furthest thing from fine when this class design ineptitude goes live.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Or, given their "buffing your talents is not our intent", we might get another HR buff! <.<

I hope next expansion healing takes a better course. MoP has been a bigger roller coaster than Cata ever was, but it just feels they rarely take the right direction.


Doubt they want to buff 10m though. Welcome to what scaling up cooldowns to 25m will do!


I don't see why not buffing 10 man would be a reasonable consideration. Resto Shaman are dead last by a huge margin in 10N, and are last (although not by as huge a margin) in 10H. They could easily use a buff across both formats. When this goes through, 25M Resto Shaman will probably be in even worse shape than 10M for the first time in years, but the entire spec will be an unmitigated disaster across all formats.
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90 Troll Shaman
3615
It's hard for me to fathom they would take us in the shape we are in and crap down this massive of a buff to other healers. WHY??

There are just too many fights where we can't stack and we just can not keep up with other healers. Screw the HPS...we don't do our job at keeping people alive on spread fights. In addition, on heroic the changes to make it harder remove the ability to stack. Take Jin'rokh on heroic...no more stacking on lightning storm. So the raidleader has an obvious decision to replace the shaman with a healer that is better on spread healing.

You would argue that the same would happen on Madera on Iron Qun, but it doesn't. All of my abilities can only barely keep myself above water on these fights. I'm popping everything I got just to keep my head above water.

I'm applying for a pretty good guild right now, and I'm probably being judged on my HPS. I'm just waiting for them to tell me I can't make it because of these numbers. You can argue they don't matter, but its really all they have to judge me by. HPs exists and it should be balanced around.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
04/29/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Zegeroth
Take Jin'rokh on heroic...no more stacking on lightning storm.


There are several strategies you can employ which get people to generally stack on lightning storm, not clumped but close enough together that shaman healing or other aoe healing can easily reach them despite the limited range most aoe heals have.

I personally like it over other strats for its simple.
Edited by Marathel on 4/29/2013 11:27 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
3615
I'll try to figure them out if I get a chance to work through it. Wouldn't it be easier to just bring a class that can do both spread and stack healing?

My suggested fix...buff to CH strength, and lower the cast time of HW and CH. Increase the mana cost of both. Also, we need our earth totem back with dmg prevention. This would give us a great benefit to raid along with the absorbs everyone else has.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
You can do it with any class. Do you know when you walk in the room and jinkroh is facing u? That grey area north of him, outside of the main room is where you stack for every lightning storm and avoid dumping orbs there.

Not clumped but generally spread out within that grey area(marked by the tile like line at each corner of the room) and any healer can reach everyone and Healing Rain, Holy Radiance, LOD and CH and so forth become much, much better.
Edited by Marathel on 4/29/2013 11:50 PM PDT
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98 Human Priest
16945
^just chiming in to say shaman are one of the better lightning storm classes in a 10 man. The group is slightly spread out, but you also have to consider you're running all around while this massive aoe is hitting your raid. Healing tide totem is always going to do really well with big mobile healing and is especially effective here (talking from experiencehttp://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/gu94qhrtxtryzhie/sum/healingDone/?s=514&e=533 ).

I didn't know you could stack in a 'safe-ish spot' during that.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6560
In the same tweet in which a blue stated that shamans are proportionally stronger in 25s as a reason to not include HTT in the buff to tranq/DH etc, he also said HTT is a talent, like that's some reason to not buff it. This is intellectually dishonest, given that 99% of resto shamans are taking HTT for every single encounter this tier. And i recognize, that they recognize this, so why don't they just stop using it as a reason?
Edited by Billywd on 4/30/2013 2:34 PM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
9890
Well, theres a few things to consider.First, you have two raid CD's. A healing CD, and a damage reduction CD (and it does more than DR). No DR CD's are being changed. On the other hand, all other healing CD's were buffed except yours. Your's was already easily doing 2x the other healers though, in the times where it's needed. (My ilvl 480 rsham can get 2.5mil HTT's.)That being said, this would likely place their throughput behind others again (the buff did a lot to equalize Rsham's in 25s actually, if you aren't doing well you need to learn to adjust to fights tbh.) Should there be some compensation? Yes probably. Does it need to be a 2.5x buff like the others? That'd be completely absurd.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
In the same tweet in which a blue stated that shamans are proportionally stronger in 25s as a reason to not include HTT in the buff to tranq/DH etc, he also said HTT is a talent, like that's some reason to not buff it. This is intellectually dishonest, given that 99% of resto shamans are taking HTT for every single encounter this tier. And i recognize, that they recognize this, so why don't they just stop using it as a reason?


Because it's contrary to their "design intent" of all talents being viable options for all specs. They would rather penalize us for the fact that our primary raid CD is effectively a mandatory talent (never mind that we already are penalized for having to spend a talent on it in the first place) than deal with the fact that their talent design for the Shaman class has been a complete failure of the class design team since Beta. It's apparently easier to cripple a spec than admit they are wrong.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
17060
04/30/2013 02:59 PMPosted by Dmassey
Well, theres a few things to consider.First, you have two raid CD's. A healing CD, and a damage reduction CD (and it does more than DR). No DR CD's are being changed. On the other hand, all other healing CD's were buffed except yours. Your's was already easily doing 2x the other healers though, in the times where it's needed. (My ilvl 480 rsham can get 2.5mil HTT's.)That being said, this would likely place their throughput behind others again (the buff did a lot to equalize Rsham's in 25s actually, if you aren't doing well you need to learn to adjust to fights tbh.) Should there be some compensation? Yes probably. Does it need to be a 2.5x buff like the others? That'd be completely absurd.


Why would you quote this? HTT does not do 2x more than other CD's, it NEVER DID. You're completely blind if you think it did. We have 2 raid cd's, yes, but no tank cd. Go read WoL for an experience role and continue to think it's the end-all fact.
Edited by Sensations on 4/30/2013 3:20 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Well, theres a few things to consider.First, you have two raid CD's. A healing CD, and a damage reduction CD (and it does more than DR). No DR CD's are being changed. On the other hand, all other healing CD's were buffed except yours. Your's was already easily doing 2x the other healers though, in the times where it's needed. (My ilvl 480 rsham can get 2.5mil HTT's.)That being said, this would likely place their throughput behind others again (the buff did a lot to equalize Rsham's in 25s actually, if you aren't doing well you need to learn to adjust to fights tbh.) Should there be some compensation? Yes probably. Does it need to be a 2.5x buff like the others? That'd be completely absurd.


HTT generally does about the same as Tranq per use. Because of the mastery scaling of HTT, it can scale up or down more than other CDs, but it seems to be pretty close to balanced with Tranq. It does somewhat more than Revival or DH, but both of those also have secondary effects balancing it. You can make the argument that HTT isn't channeled and I would be fine with it becoming channeled if necessary for it to be buffed appropriately. However, you also have to consider that (1) Revival is instant cast (2) Tranq can be cast while moving with Symbiosis (3) HTT does take up our water totem slot, which involves juggling and sometimes lost throughput.

SLT is the weakest and most limited raid CD. It is generally so weak that it can barely be considered a real raid CD. It gives you 30% of the damage reduction of a barrier, or 50% of the damage reduction of AM (with a range restriction tacked on top of it). Unless the health redistribution is amazingly valuable (and it's usually more a gimmick than anything), SLT is effectively weaker than half of a damage reduction CD.

So, if you want to be precise, we have 1.5 raid cooldowns currently. We have no tank cooldown. On top of that, the other abilities getting buffed and HTT getting ignored means that HTT will only be about 35% of a real healing CD. Therefore, post 5.3, we have 85% of a full raid CD, still no tank CD, and still bottom of the barrel throughput with no attention to spread healing limitations.
Edited by Tiberria on 4/30/2013 3:33 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6560
04/30/2013 02:59 PMPosted by Tiberria
Because it's contrary to their "design intent" of all talents being viable options for all specs.


Given this, and the fact they've stated they're loathe to change HTT in its current form because of how much we rely on it, the least radical idea seems to be make HTT baseline, offer us a new talent in that tier, and then balance the numbers. Maybe i'm wrong, but this seems like an easy decision, since our healing overall appears to be a bit low.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
04/30/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Billywd
Because it's contrary to their "design intent" of all talents being viable options for all specs.


Given this, and the fact they've stated they're loathe to change HTT in its current form because of how much we rely on it, the least radical idea seems to be make HTT baseline, offer us a new talent in that tier, and then balance the numbers. Maybe i'm wrong, but this seems like an easy decision, since our healing overall appears to be a bit low.


The problem is, for whatever assinine reason, GC and team feel that there is no issue with Shaman output. This is at odds with what aggregate logs are showing, and at odds with the general opinion on forums and the general community perception. It is also definitely at odds with common sense if they think that even if we are fine right now, that 25% Druid and 10-15% Priest and Monk buffs with no compensation to Shaman will still leave us "fine".

It's almost like 5.0/5.1 where they kept repeating over and over that Resto Druids are fine, ignoring the obvious data to the contrary in 25 man raids. They were eventually forced to buff them repeatedly, but they were forced to wait through basically 2 full tiers of being mediocre to bad before getting sufficient buffs. All that we can do is continue to post, continue to tweet him and continue to complain. Like the bandaid HR/ELW/CH fix, eventually, they probably will listen to community uproar. Hopefully it will happen before T16.
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100 Human Paladin
13555
I'm all for buffing Restoration Shaman alongside the other HoT-based healers, but buffing it through Healing Tide Totem is not the proper way to do it.

The fact that Healing Tide Totem is the most chosen talent is irrelevant. Talents, by their inherent design, are meant to be malleable and a choice for the player, and having a talent that is head and shoulders above the other choices in the same tier is bad design. There is always going to be an encounter where one talent choice pushes ahead of the others, but trying to buff a talent that's taken by every Restoration Shaman in progression raiding on every raid encounter because "Hey, they all take it anyways, might as well!" is utter nonsense.

If you want some meaningful changes to be made to the specialization, then here's a good start I would suggest: nerf Healing Tide Totem so that the other options within the same tier are actual options, and buff Restoration Shaman in areas where they are actually hurting, such as spread healing and mobile healing, or perhaps actually make Spirit Link Totem worth a damn.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I'm all for buffing Restoration Shaman alongside the other HoT-based healers, but buffing it through Healing Tide Totem is not the proper way to do it.

The fact that Healing Tide Totem is the most chosen talent is irrelevant. Talents, by their inherent design, are meant to be malleable and a choice for the player, and having a talent that is head and shoulders above the other choices in the same tier is bad design. There is always going to be an encounter where one talent choice pushes ahead of the others, but trying to buff a talent that's taken by every Restoration Shaman in progression raiding on every raid encounter because "Hey, they all take it anyways, might as well!" is utter nonsense.

If you want some meaningful changes to be made to the specialization, then here's a good start I would suggest: nerf Healing Tide Totem so that the other options within the same tier are actual options, and buff Restoration Shaman in areas where they are actually hurting, such as spread healing and mobile healing, or perhaps actually make Spirit Link Totem worth a damn.


All that you are doing here is spouting off and regurgitating Blizzard's stated class design goals when they designed the new talent system. The bottom line is, their intent doesn't matter at this point. The reality is, HTT has become a core part of the Resto Shaman toolkit, it has become so mandatory that it is effectively baseline, and it fills the identical role for us as Tranquility and Divine Hymn fill. Whether that was their design or not means nothing. The distinction between talent and baseline skill also effectively means nothing - specs are balanced around their overall kit, not around talents being balanced across classes. Some classes have stronger talents, some classes have stronger baseline skills. It means absolutely nothing, as long as the total package is balanced.

The bottom line is also that HTT was obviously designed to be a Tranq equivalent, and was put in the talent tree for that reason. If these changes go through, it is no longer a Tranq equivalent, and our entire talent tree and the strength of our spec is compromised significantly. Was it a bad idea to put that type of ability in as a talent? Probably. However, making it useless/inferior is not going to fix the failure in basic class design. On top of that, the Shaman talent tree really can't afford to be gutted any more than it already is, when you look at the near irrelevance of the first 3 tiers of talents, and the weakness of the L90 talents compared to those of other healers. The fundamental problem is that HTT should never have been a talent in the first place, but the fact that they were too lazy to make a replacement talent so it could be made baseline should in no way effect the fact that it needs to be buffed to keep pace with other identical abilities.
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