How to fix OP absorbs

90 Troll Shaman
17270
For personal credibility, our 10 man runs with the two 'worst healers eva!' a resto druid and resto shaman (and me). Our tanks aren't a monk or prot paladin, so we must totally be gimping ourselves with a warrior/dk. We have 3 melee dps and 2 ranged, so we must totally be shooting ourselves in the feet. Or maybe the 'best classes' and the 'worst classes' aren't as game-breaking as forum posters would have you thinking.

Note that "and me" refers to a disc priest.
3 healing, with 1 healer who can go disc OR holy while the others are diverse is a good healing comp for heroic fights this tier.
Do you swap out one of your specs for shadow when you two heal fights? If not then you'd always have the option to have a disc (burst/dps) or holy (sustained) which really is a almost-ideal comp. If your druid+shaman are the ones who 2 heal content, then you are roughing it a little bit on some fights, which just means more gear may be necessary OR just more attempts as you'll have more gibs -> reset boss and try again.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Pitka, Disc is not Burst. Disc cannot burst anyone back up. For one thing, they can't crit the way you can or I can as Holy. Their only AoE is a very non-bursty spell (it's like, 40k max). Compared to a Shaman, Holy Priest, or Paladin, Disc has no burst.

In contrast, Holy is burst but is very mana limited (making "sustained" an issue unless you camp in Serenity and do nothing but roll Renew).
Edited by Tiriel on 4/30/2013 12:07 PM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Pitka, Disc is not Burst. Disc cannot burst anyone back up. For one thing, they can't crit the way you can or I can as Holy. Their only AoE is a very non-bursty spell (it's like, 40k max). Compared to a Shaman, Holy Priest, or Paladin, Disc has no burst.

In contrast, Holy is burst but is very mana limited (making "sustained" an issue unless you camp in Serenity and do nothing but roll Renew).

I'm referring to burst damage rather than burst healing, the places where damage occurs within a time window where no healing can be done between it (iron qon windstorm w/out lock gate so you have to actually run out, damage done instantly, warlord shout+dire call lining up close to each other aka barrier plz).
Sustained is more about damage occurring over many seconds (iron qon phase 4), or situations where you can get the raid back up over time without fear of gibs.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11900
04/25/2013 09:46 AMPosted by Naérdriel


Add the abuse and shaming from other players to whom meters do matter and telling you that you suck and need to l2p because you as a druid can't heal a thing with 3 priests and 2 paladins in the group...


(hugs for shammy's and druids)

My co healer is a druid. I get irritated when the raid leader snarks at her about the meter. I tell him to back the hell off, since she's healing fine and I'm not stressing on fights with her.


I love you. My healing partner in raids before thunderking was a disc priest we worked well together and it seems only healers really know whats going on. Props for sticking up for your partner cause you know if your pulling weight or not.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21080
I see nothing wrong with absorbs.
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100 Pandaren Monk
17695
My biggest problems when looking at absorbs is that when people look at heal meters they're often times quick to say "oh look the druid/shaman/monk is doing garbage healing overall" when you're in a 10 man healing with a disc priest and holy paladin. If you were to delve into the actual parse of the fight however and look at particularly high damage phases where there's enough damage to break the bubbles and cause healing to be done (Megaera's Rampage, Durumu's Light Spectrum phase, Jin'Rohk's Lightning Phase, last phase of Lei Shen) you can really see if a healer is pulling their weight or not in most cases.

I'm more annoyed at the culture of people not taking a moment to look at parses (ESPECIALLY in organized raiding where you'll be running them) to see if the healer is pulling their weight or if they're possibly overhealing something and that healer simply has nothing to heal.

Its also a little disheartening that some encounters are tuned for absorbs of some sort, but at the same time this inspires diversity in healer comp which is a good thing.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
Its also a little disheartening that some encounters are tuned for absorbs of some sort, but at the same time this inspires diversity in healer comp which is a good thing.


My guild uses resto druid, monk, resto shaman. Very diverse but no absorb healer and no one really wants to jump ship and switch mains. We use monk/druid for 2 heal fights and it's kind of awkward even on normal so I imagine that wouldn't go over well on many heroics.

If you were to delve into the actual parse of the fight however and look at particularly high damage phases where there's enough damage to break the bubbles and cause healing to be done (Megaera's Rampage, Durumu's Light Spectrum phase, Jin'Rohk's Lightning Phase, last phase of Lei Shen) you can really see if a healer is pulling their weight or not in most cases.


I understand that raidbots is a small sample source with how few guilds have parses for heroic 10-man ToT bosses but going off of just that, disc and holy pally are dominating in every fight EXCEPT tortos where druid and monk nudge them out. If you look at the overall picture they are about 15% ahead of everyone else even if you ignore the role that absorbs play with many heroic mechanics. It seems like there are few fights where thoroughput from other healers shines through and 10-man guilds will likely adhere to the massive representation of disc/pally for heroic progression.
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90 Pandaren Monk
14715
I see nothing wrong with absorbs.


I think I almost died when I looked at your mastery rating

is that 55% IH raid...buffed...?

You must be a horrible person to do that to your healers
Edited by Suplift on 5/1/2013 5:43 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
14715
My two cents, absorbs and raw healing in progression actually work really well together.

Mistweavers for example work extremely well with disc/holy paladins in progression. Absorbs allow your Mistweaver Monk to be able to burst heal the raid to full health, while the absorbs help stop your raid from being one shot.

The only real problem with absorbs imo, is the scaling on IH and how passive it is. Divine Aegis not so much, Spirit Shell is perfect how it is.

Again, you're a healer. You're a TEAM, you should be working together. Which means letting your disc/holy paladins prestack shields on the raid to help your throughput healers heal the raid to full. This is why disc/mistweaver in 10's works very well.

In a perfect world where meters don't matter, your throughput healers and absorb healers should work together and support each other. Which means Disc priests mostly atonement healing and setting up pre-shields on the raid before major damage comes out. Which allows your Mistweaver/Restoration Druid/Holy Priest/Restoration Shaman to burst heal the raid back up and your disc priest/holy paladin go back to atonement healing and supporting your raid in other ways. Whether that be through Tank healing or stacking shields up on the raid before the next big burst.

Like I said holy paladins are a problem only because their mastery scales so well, and t14-4 set is super good. When they are fixed holy paladin's will not be op.

Most of the QQ about absorbs comes from people overgearing the content and just absorbing everything all the way to the bank. Which can be fixed by bring less healers. Raw throughput healers SHOULD always outheal absorb healers.
Edited by Suplift on 5/1/2013 5:54 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
14715
Nothing is incredibly OP right now. No specific healer is making or breaking fights. In 25man a good mix is going to outdo stacking paladins or disc priests any day. The only part that can be construed as unbalanced is those would be the first two classes to bring two of. That's not OP, they just fit well for this tier.


The top healers right now just have unique gimmicks that make them super good, disc priests with atonement, holy pallys with IH, mistweavers with endless mana and never ending spamming, and resto shamans with their amazing raid utility.

What they need to do is find that special thing to resto druids/holy priests and focus on that so there's a good reason to bring them over the top healers.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21080
You must be a horrible person to do that to your healers


So I've heard!
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
Which means letting your disc/holy paladins prestack shields on the raid to help your throughput healers heal the raid to full


What if you don't have either a disc or a pally?
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90 Human Priest
4285
Just saying my DA is usually only like 3rd or 4th on my charts of what healed the most vs. previous patch where it was 1st or 2nd. Just depends on fights and the random crits honestly. Spirit Shell is pretty powerful I have to say, but OP not really.
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90 Undead Priest
7425
05/01/2013 01:45 PMPosted by Stratis
Which means letting your disc/holy paladins prestack shields on the raid to help your throughput healers heal the raid to full


What if you don't have either a disc or a pally?


It doesn't matter.

If the priest or pally is stacking absorbs (meaning, the damage is too small to consume the bubble) it really doesn't matter... You're already outhealing the content.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
05/01/2013 01:45 PMPosted by Stratis
Which means letting your disc/holy paladins prestack shields on the raid to help your throughput healers heal the raid to full


What if you don't have either a disc or a pally?


It shouldn't matter. You're tuned to be putting out the correct amount of healing regardless of raid comp. Disc just snipes much, MUCH more easily when you are overhealing content.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
If the priest or pally is stacking absorbs (meaning, the damage is too small to consume the bubble) it really doesn't matter... You're already outhealing the content.


Not neccessarily. Almost all the damage in tot seems to come in large, predictable bursts so that on the majority of fights there isn't too much "small" damage keeping absorbs from being effective.

It shouldn't matter. You're tuned to be putting out the correct amount of healing regardless of raid comp. Disc just snipes much, MUCH more easily when you are overhealing content.


It matter when in comes to mechanics hitting raid members for 70 - 90% of total health pool and trying to prevent gibs from happening. From what I head heroic dark animus actually hit raids for more dmg than the majority of players had for health (was hotfixed). You can argue those people should be using defencive cooldowns and that they should still not be a risk of dieing at <20% health (eh) but when it comes down to it absorbs are preventing quite a few gibs in 10-man (whether it is pally mastery, PW:S blanket, or spirit shell). Besides that disc and pally are pulling ahead on every fight except tortos 10 - 15% from all appearances which only encourages the hype that using other healers is disadvantageous.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
It matter when in comes to mechanics hitting raid members for 70 - 90% of total health pool and trying to prevent gibs from happening. From what I head heroic dark animus actually hit raids for more dmg than the majority of players had for health (was hotfixed). You can argue those people should be using defencive cooldowns and that they should still not be a risk of dieing at <20% health (eh) but when it comes down to it absorbs are preventing quite a few gibs in 10-man (whether it is pally mastery, PW:S blanket, or spirit shell). Besides that disc and pally are pulling ahead on every fight except tortos 10 - 15% from all appearances which only encourages the hype that using other healers is disadvantageous.


When I'm Holy for fights that involve intense burst damage, or spread/pulsing damage, I stomp all over Disc Priests and, for the most part, Paladins. Iron Qon and Twins both have extremely intense damage, but I honestly don't feel like I'm being held back by not being Disc on either encounter. Same with Durumu (although I was Disc for our kill, because our other priest was out of town). Yes, there are fights that DO favor Disc and Pallies. But there are also fights that do not favor them at all. Heroic Durumu, in particular, makes me want to cut myself. I hate that fight as Disc, but enjoy it as Holy.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
It matter when in comes to mechanics hitting raid members for 70 - 90% of total health pool and trying to prevent gibs from happening. From what I head heroic dark animus actually hit raids for more dmg than the majority of players had for health (was hotfixed). You can argue those people should be using defencive cooldowns and that they should still not be a risk of dieing at <20% health (eh) but when it comes down to it absorbs are preventing quite a few gibs in 10-man (whether it is pally mastery, PW:S blanket, or spirit shell). Besides that disc and pally are pulling ahead on every fight except tortos 10 - 15% from all appearances which only encourages the hype that using other healers is disadvantageous.


When I'm Holy for fights that involve intense burst damage, or spread/pulsing damage, I stomp all over Disc Priests and, for the most part, Paladins. Iron Qon and Twins both have extremely intense damage, but I honestly don't feel like I'm being held back by not being Disc on either encounter. Same with Durumu (although I was Disc for our kill, because our other priest was out of town). Yes, there are fights that DO favor Disc and Pallies. But there are also fights that do not favor them at all. Heroic Durumu, in particular, makes me want to cut myself. I hate that fight as Disc, but enjoy it as Holy.


Holy can be more competative on primordias, durumu, and iron qon because there is more sustained damage that happens frequently or for long periods of time and those fights don't revolve around the occasional bursts where disc does best. HOWEVER disc is STILL slightly outperforming holy on all three of those fights. It's close enough on those fights that it doesn't really matter but why bother playing holy then? Apparently no one has even TRIED holy priest that have parsed for dark animus. I would assume it's because disc can trivilize the raid wide aoe that does 80%+ of everyones health.

Edit: Nvm on primordias, holy is not even close to disc but then again there probably is almost no holy priests parsing for 10-man because they all play as disc...
Edited by Stratis on 5/1/2013 8:54 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
19010
I'm not terribly fussed about that. I've been playing long enough that I know that meters aren't the most important thing etc etc.

A couple pages ago there was a post regarding 'feeling useless'. That's kind of the thing that's resonated the most with me. I'd love to have the feeling that my ability to do incredibly high throughput were useful in current content.

I actually do get this feeling out of LFR, ironically enough. I started this teir undergeared and have gone up approximately 40 ilvls in a month, but even 25 ilvls ago, I was able to "outheal" most people in LFR- barring geared exceptions. I pretty much dominate every LFR I go into, which I have recently started doing just to practice throughput rotations.

What is a bit killer to me is that I feel useless in my own 25 man raid group. 2 pallys, 2 priests (1 of each most of the time) a mistweaver and a resto shaman, and I literally have nothing to bring that they can't already do equally well or better while bringing mana return, or high dps. Why *should* they bring me? assuming equal skill.

I don't particularly want my throughput changed. I just wish I had something to do. I see that via redesign of absorb mechanics- particularly in the case of Holy Paladins, or changes in the amount of boss damage/player HP. I literally just want to feel useful.

Maybe there is some secret place where players have an insight as to how how the Developers see this issue, but I will say, many players aren't happy with the state of healing, not all of course, but plenty. It would be pretty cool if there were at least some commentary from Blizz.
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21 Tauren Warrior
17345
> "Meters don't matter."

Of course they do matter, when you are actually on hard content where composition matters.

The encounter design right now is heavily focused on short burst damage with lulls in-between, so Paladins and Disc priests shine incredibly well while all the other healing classes are 2nd tier. Ignoring the problem with absorbs for, these two classes also have some rather game-breaking utility:

- Paladins: HoP (Can negate tank swap abilities on many encounters), Devo Aura, Sac, Purity (recently nerfed), etc.

- Disc: Attonement, which is basically half a DPS in terms of damage while also healing enough to sustain the lulls in encounters.

Having absorbs on top of this is just icing on the cake. Let's just not mention things like Beacon (= passive tank healing while healing raid with almost no effort required) or Spirit Shells that can cut the burst from some boss abilities by nearly half (fortunately in this tier Spirit Shell isn't as dominating as it used to be in HoF/MSV, but it's not something that can be ignored).

What do other healing classes/specs that have anything that is close in usefulness in this tier? There is a reason why so few people play Holy -- because Disc is just more useful despite its inherently lower HPS.

The only times where other throughput-based healing classes can shine is when damage is high enough (Megaera, Council, Primordius) and only a fraction of the current encounters have that (Tortos is a bit of an outlier because of the heal-to-shield mechanic and required mobility, which is advantageous for Monks / Druids). For the hardest fights of them all, i.e. Dark Animus & Lei Shen, damage is still in the usual bursty format and once again, hardly anyone would want to bring a non-absorb spec over the others. Of course you can bring a non-absorb spec, it's just nowhere near optimal and you will be unlikely to get any sub-world-100 kills with them.

The reality of absorbs is that they are much less likely to become overheals while having a significantly long lifetime over which they do not decay at all (a 100k absorb after 12 sec is still 100k, until it expires 15 sec later). Contrast that with a HoT such as Renew which has a shorter duration, and every tick that doesn't heal becomes overheal. The difference is simply that absorbs can deliver healing as fast as damage is received (up to the absorption cap) while HoT does healing at a fixed rate that will rarely match with the rate of damage intake.

Honestly though, there's hardly any hope of them actually fixing this mess (if you're the optimistic type -- next expansion, perhaps). Re-rolling just seems to be the better option these days considering how long it takes for these glaring problems to get fixed.
Edited by Horice on 5/2/2013 8:28 PM PDT
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