How to fix OP absorbs

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
My point was that on top100 logs disc is outperforming everyone on that fight.

On average logs holy does beat disc, but if a disc can't heal that fight ... then only holy priests are viable because monks are tied with disc, shamans and druids are on the average worse.


The reason Holy doesn't appear "often" in 10 man logs has more to do with the nature of Chakra than with any weakness/strength Disc has. Disc doesn't have to sacrifice single-target healing to AoE, but their AoE healing isn't that great.
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
Without having read this thread, or really caring to, the way to fix absorbs is to remove them all (less PW:S).

Blood DKs can keep theirs!

(as if that's a relevant point to this discussion, yet someone always chirps in with it)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8340
Following that thought, honestly taking top 100 logs is going to dramatically skew the results. Regardless of the reason, disc priests and holy paladins have more representation as a whole then a spec like holy priests. In that situation, taking the top 100 holy priests could very easily end up being the top 50%, while the top 100 disc priests could be the top 10%. These percentages are completely made up, but qualitatively speaking, less represented classes will look much worse then more popular classes, regardless of their actual value in a particular encounter.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
The reason why I put more emphasis on the average logs than the top100 logs is exactly that. The top100 logs of 700 logs for 1 spec, compared to the top100 logs of 101 logs of another spec... the 700 log group looks dominant.

But in terms of sustained AoE healing, average parses... Disc isn't paying an absorb/barrier/dps penalty compared to any other classes. Only holy priests. At least based on heroic iron qon.
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90 Pandaren Priest
10765
By linking heroic horridon. A fight that is 90% derp and dps check and has very limited hps requirements (100k hps combined from healers).
Link me a dozen 10H dark animus logs that lack a disc preist. (fixed via edit) 50+ 10H guilds have gotten it... it shouldn't that hard to find right?


17 shamans 17 monks 11 druids 45 pallys 61 disc priests have done it on 10 man.

Finding a dozen that have progressed that far into Heroic TOT this early is almost impossible when having to pick through logs. I posted a horridon log because we you look at 10 man heroic horridon its dominated by disc priests. Guilds have survived dire call and debuffs with no absorb protection.

Every guild had a disc priest last tier we were stupidly broken. Give it time as more guild down bosses you will see more kills. There are quite a few who dont have a disc priest but having a pally absorbs is pretty close to the same.
Edited by Loratabb on 4/26/2013 4:48 PM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
11170
I think most of you are missing the point here.
The main problem is not raid comp or who heals more.
The main problem is that priests and pallies are making every other healer class bored! (at least on normal modes)
It really SUCKS not to be able to do your job!
I get that most of you are concerned about numbers and progression, but the real problem is taking the fun away for a lot of people!
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85 Troll Death Knight
6865
just change divine aegis/illuminated healing to work off effective healing instead of raw healing

that way you can't ignore overheals all the time and cheese the whole raid with absorbs
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90 Draenei Priest
12250
This idea makes me feel like absorbs will be extremely mana inefficient. Paladins would forge back to haste and disc will go holy.
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90 Draenei Priest
12250
04/25/2013 09:46 AMPosted by Naérdriel


Add the abuse and shaming from other players to whom meters do matter and telling you that you suck and need to l2p because you as a druid can't heal a thing with 3 priests and 2 paladins in the group...


(hugs for shammy's and druids)

My co healer is a druid. I get irritated when the raid leader snarks at her about the meter. I tell him to back the hell off, since she's healing fine and I'm not stressing on fights with her.


I always top meters. It's how the class works. But just because I top the meters because proper absorbs are never wasted, it doesn't mean I am better.

METERS DONT MATTER! A proper CD on a tank that saves a raid > knowing the basic mechanics and casting ss appropriately.

I wanna hug the poor druid lol. I don't know why people don't understand that meters don't tell the whole story.

Good thing you have their back =)
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
The way they designed these heroics certainly doesn't help keep paladins and disc from being the primary healers. Most these fights are just surviving a massive aoe ability on the raid and recovering until the next one. What better way to survive the aoe and down the boss then to stack absorbs? Spirit shell on 1 minute cooldown!? OP as hell! I really don't see how 1 minute cooldown is acceptable with the way it simplifies mechanics. It's not like holy pallys or disc priests are lacking in single target thoroughput or cooldowns like say a druid or shaman forced to use 20% iron bark and .... soul link totem???

Spirit shell combined with PW:S spam makes a lot of mechanics trivial when compared to not having absorbs at all. It might not be such an issue if spirit shell wasn't something that could be used every minute in a fight and even circumvented mechanics occasionally (phase 3 parasitic growth and solo absoring H council frostbite). Disc needs to be revamped and given improved aoe (not just buffing PoH!) and have spirit shell either turned into a 3 minute cooldown or changed entirely from it's current incarnation.
Edited by Stratis on 4/27/2013 12:40 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I think most of you are missing the point here.
The main problem is not raid comp or who heals more.
The main problem is that priests and pallies are making every other healer class bored! (at least on normal modes)
It really SUCKS not to be able to do your job!
I get that most of you are concerned about numbers and progression, but the real problem is taking the fun away for a lot of people!


Do heroic content and I guarantee you that your co-healers will never be bored. I think that if my cohealers and I were any "less" bored on H Iron Qon last night, we would have exploded into piles of healer angst.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8340
On the positive side, i literally had to stifle cackles of glee every PoM proc on the last phase. Best. Thing. Ever.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
On the positive side, i literally had to stifle cackles of glee every PoM proc on the last phase. Best. Thing. Ever.


I was scraping the bottle of the barrel towards the end due to a spear that went sideways a bit earlier, but yeah. PoM is nuts on that fight.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14850
Hi I raid 10 man as resto druid main, here is my 2 cents worth of constructive feedback regarding PvE healing balance and absorb mechanics.

As a resto druid it is not fun 3 healing fights and having nothing to heal (due to absorb snipe) until really big dmg comes, I feel useless. Imo absorbs are the main problem atm, and are taking up too much of the overall healing

This quote from 5.2 class review basically sums up the plight of all non-absorb healers:

“We think that some of Restoration’s performance issues were actually caused by Discipline Priests being so dominant (since absorb shields are better at “sniping” heals than even Heal over Time effects)”.
- add holy paladins to this.

Re Disc priest:

- Imo spirit shell is fine as it requires skill and thought
- Prayer of healing is fine post 5.2 nerfs
- Atonement is broken and over powered. Quote: "Atonement is really overpowered. We're trying to nerf it without removing all of its fun" (Blizzard).
This ability requires no thought or skill and is used to heal any and all small to moderate raid dmg. Current 5.3 ptr nerfs are extremely mediocre, this ability needs further nerfs. Blizzard however seems reluctant to apply heavy direct nerfs to this ability.

Suggestions:
Imo the range on atonement should be reduced to 10-15 yards, this would make this ability a little more situational and would actually require some thought as to who is taking dmg before using this ability.

Overall disc seems reasonably balanced (in 10s at least), bar the fact that they bring extra dps. Imo disc absorbs are fine as their non-absorb healing is mediocre, or would be if atonement was nerfed appropriately.

Re Holy Paladin:

- Passive/secondary absorbs (illuminated healing) is over powered.

Paladins are significantly over power atm due to illuminated healing, Illuminated healing will remain overpowered post mediocre 5.3 nerfs, and will need further adjustment.
- Holy radiance with illuminated healing is basically 5.1 prayer of healing/divine aegis

Suggestions:
Nerf the HoT duration of eternal flame by 50-75% to prevent the extension of IH bubble indefinitely.
Nerf paladin mastery further so it is competitive with crit and haste.

Here is a direct example of how broken holy paladin are (imo).

We 2 heal 10s with holy pally and resto druid
Resto druids strengths as a healer are basically holy paladins weaknesses, spread aoe healing, and constant movement while healing.

H tortos is arguable the best encounter for resto druid and worst encounter for holy pally, it involves heavy movement and a very spread out raid. Due to these circumstances one would argue that resto druid should beat a pally on this fight (regardless of the gimmick absorb shield) assuming equal ilvl.

- 1st kill log
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4r5o89jyxjh859pw/sum/healingDone/?s=574&e=1061
(terrible attempt from me, failed tranq twice due to no spirit walker grace)

- 2nd kill log
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-oih5qmxjm9k7r652/sum/healingDone/?s=5867&e=6402

Had the absorb shield gimmick been removed from this fight the pally would have equaled my healing and or stomped my face on hps.


Summary:
Why are people so focused on disc absorbs? Imo holy pally mastery and atonement are the problems.
Blizzard please nerf absorbs so there is something for us non absorb healers to heal outside of heavy raid dmg.
Edited by Krippsy on 4/27/2013 5:00 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
6760
How long was it that Priests were kicked aside and forgotten through wrath, cat ?? Paladins rocked in cat, Shammy's in wrath and Druids where always OP. Now suddenly we need balance ??

Yes let's put the Priests back at the bottom where they belong.
Edited by Melysana on 4/27/2013 5:49 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10565
Suggestions:
Imo the range on atonement should be reduced to 10-15 yards, this would make this ability a little more situational and would actually require some thought as to who is taking dmg before using this ability.

Please try to understand Disc issues before you recommend Disc nerfs.

There is a very good reason why Atonement needs to be 40 yards. The spec's single-target healing toolkit is flat-out broken for modern damage patterns, and Blizzard refuses to fix it (just like they refuse to fix Chakra, which causes more-or-less the same problem for Holy).

I'll get behind an Atonement nerf when they unfrack priest triage healing. (I mean "triage" in the actual-definition-of-the-word sense, not the Ghostcrawler sense).
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90 Pandaren Priest
10765
How long was it that Priests were kicked aside and forgotten through wrath, cat ?? Paladins rocked in cat, Shammy's in wrath and Druids where always OP. Now suddenly we need balance ??

Yes let's put the Priests back at the bottom where they belong.


Disc was the go to healer from 4.2 on in cata to today. Even in wrath especially in 10 man almost every raid had a disc for bubble spam.

Priests have been at the top for quite some time now. We have been softening mechanics since FL with DA

I dont think priests were ever kicked aside. Holy has taken a backseat to disc in recent expacs but thats a benefit of having two healing specs.
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90 Draenei Shaman
6760
How long was it that Priests were kicked aside and forgotten through wrath, cat ?? Paladins rocked in cat, Shammy's in wrath and Druids where always OP. Now suddenly we need balance ??

Yes let's put the Priests back at the bottom where they belong.


Disc was the go to healer from 4.2 on in cata to today. Even in wrath especially in 10 man almost every raid had a disc for bubble spam.

Priests have been at the top for quite some time now. We have been softening mechanics since FL with DA

I dont think priests were ever kicked aside. Holy has taken a backseat to disc in recent expacs but thats a benefit of having two healing specs.


Utility, maybe on the guild seen, Pug's where always Priest's need not apply, and some how I doubt that they dominated the way the other class's did.

I used to go to Heroic HoR for yucks with Shammy, Healed through it with no tank several times, that's just plain OP.
Edited by Melysana on 4/27/2013 7:08 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
14850
04/27/2013 05:54 AMPosted by Kaels
Please try to understand Disc issues before you recommend Disc nerfs.


The issue with disc priest is their ability to bring non insubstantial dps to the raid whist remaining one of the highest hps healers currently in the game.

This imbalance is solely due to atonement which allows disc priests to produce very efficient smart heals whist adding to overall raid dps, and requires little to no thought process from the priest as to who is taking dmg.

Blizzard themselves has stated that this ability is overpowered

I was trying to provide discussion for indirect nerfs for atonement, which are usually more preferable to direct throughput nerfs.

04/27/2013 05:54 AMPosted by Kaels
There is a very good reason why Atonement needs to be 40 yards.

Disc priest have done exceptionally well in WOTLK and CATA without atonement.

04/27/2013 05:54 AMPosted by Kaels
I'll get behind an Atonement nerf when they unfrack priest triage healing.

Instead of dissing others posts, how about you bring something to the discussion? How would you go about changing attonement?
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
The issue with disc priest is their ability to bring non insubstantial dps to the raid whist remaining one of the highest hps healers currently in the game.


And the other issue is that Disc Priest have close to zero proper tools to spot raid heal outside of Atonement.

Atonement won't be the issue for much longer though, with the meta and higher gear levels, we're really close to the point of being PW:S bots again.

Disc priest have done exceptionally well in WOTLK and CATA without atonement.


Yea, that was back when PW:S was highly spammable and when non-crit PoHs still triggered DA.

Instead of dissing others posts, how about you bring something to the discussion? How would you go about changing attonement?


Simple, nerf the crap outta Smite while keeping Atonement and Penance as they are.
Edited by Ceddya on 4/27/2013 7:56 AM PDT
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