How to fix OP absorbs

100 Blood Elf Priest
13125
Disc priest have done exceptionally well in WOTLK and CATA without atonement.

Disc in Wrath had ridiculously OP bubblespam.

Disc in Cata had infinite mana and auto-DA on PoH.

This is actually the first time in three expansions that Disc has not been essentially a one-button spec. Believe it or not, the current Spirit Shell/Atonement/PWS game is actually a step up in complexity and a step down in power from where Disc has been for the last five years.

Are they still frustrating to play with? Yes. I play a holy priest (well, one and a half holy priests, actually) in raids with disc priests. Believe me, I have every reason in the world to want Disc balanced. But first of all, they're not that imbalanced, and secondly, your proposed solution would break the spec.

And there isn't a good solution. Or, rather, there aren't any good solutions that Blizzard would actually implement, because they're married to Grace and Chakra. So we might as well all shut up, because the current balance (minus the small nerfs we're seeing in 5.3) is about as good as it's going to get. The only other thing I can think of is nerfing Rapture.

Any more major nerf will set the balance pendulum in motion again, and that's never good. The first reaction tends to be buffing PoH. By a lot.
Edited by Kaels on 4/27/2013 3:06 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
most 10 man fights work better with only 2 healers, would rather bring the H pally and Dpriest.

Druids just seem to fit better in 25m fights, and seem almost useless in 10mans.
And resto shamans are incredibly weak in ToT, other than maybe Magaera.


I am speaking from a 25 man perspective, but when I was 10 man, my preferred co-healer was a Resto Druid.

Resto Shaman are not weak in ToT. Many raid leaders are stupid and refuse to structure strats around Resto Shaman strengths. Which isn't "catering to the weak healer." When you design a strat around Resto Shaman abilities, the fight often becomes ridiculously easier because you are exploiting everything that Shaman are good at.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
In early mop people had a problem because they did not convert to spirit. In cata i could get away with little to no spirit due to rapture being 7% of intellect. In mop We did have really high mana costs on PoH and bubble. But after you got mvs geared we were doing well.

It was not the faceroll playstyle we had after the buff. Disc was in a rather good place balance wise pre mop buffs.

* edit
Early mop we could still soften mechanics with PoH spam to build up da. However we could not keep it rolling due to mana costs. Now we can shield spam with SS and bring dps to the table. Essentially the blizzard balance changes didn't change anything but the spells we used.


Mm. No. The bulk of the issues that Disc Priests had in 5.0 was abilities that worked against each other. We had no synergy and desperately needed for our short-term CDs to work together instead of against each other. We also scaled (and still scale) far too well with gear. This meant that we were very weak at the start, but with gear would have fewer and fewer mana problems.

Unfortunately while Blizzard did fix several of our mechanical issues, they left others completely untouched and tried to "paper over" those issues with ridiculous, over-the-top numbers and regen buffs that were not needed.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
The only other thing I can think of is nerfing Rapture.


Which will ultimately prove to be pointless because Blizzard also seems married to the idea of a scaling Rapture proc.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
By all means let me rephrase. I didn't think the sky was falling in early mop. As you pointed out things were indeed rough at the start as echoed by my logs. With gear scaling when gear improved so did priests QoL in general.

But yes in early mop disc priest could do quite well many priests refused to adapt or read up on their class. Instead many players took to the forum and twitter in QQ fest.

Bubbles now are an echo of what they were and no matter how much you nerf them people will still not be happy. I like bubbles personally they are the reason swapped from a lock to a priest. Naturally i hope they stay.


The spec was unworkable for me in 5.0. Now, you can call me a bad Priest, or someone who "refused to adapt," although I would say you are wrong on both counts. But the fact remains that many Priests had extreme difficulty fulfilling their role in their raids, and felt they were holding their guilds back by being Disc. My guild at the time actually considered having me swap to a Shaman because we could no longer two-heal...well, pretty much anything.

They aren't going to get rid of bubbles, imo. But it is somewhat disconcerting how much rage and angst is being directed at Paladins and Priests by people who haven't seen the content that was designed to challenge our toolkits.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
They aren't going to get rid of bubbles, imo. But it is somewhat disconcerting how much rage and angst is being directed at Paladins and Priests by people who haven't seen the content that was designed to challenge our toolkits.


Personally I don't find that the most disconcerting. What I find worse is the lack of understanding but to be honest its not surprising. Every tier there is a black sheep. And I do not understand how some people forget that normal modes have NEVER been the main issue Blizzard looks at when regarding balance. It's a lot more and it has been very controversial for better or worse.

I will never forgot to this day why paladins still have Divine Favor that almost got permanently deleted in MOP beta.
Edited by Marathel on 4/27/2013 9:35 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
9420
This may not be a popular opion, but I believe at least part of the "problem" is raiding has been opened up to a larger percent of the wow population due to the advent of LFR. This is a good thing overall. The problem arises though, that many people form perceptions of class balance based on environments that are intentionally designed to be easy. The main way to accomplish this from a healing standpoint is to dramatically reduce the amount of output needed, and this has turned healing into a sniping war.

This has been said before, but bears repeating: Disc's strength is exaggerated when content is overhealed, and there is very little that can be done to fix this while keeping disc an absorption based spec without breaking it in progression.
Edited by Mythrose on 4/28/2013 12:32 AM PDT
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86 Human Paladin
6235
04/28/2013 12:25 AMPosted by Mythrose
This may not be a popular opion, but I believe at least part of the "problem" is raiding has been opened up to a larger percent of the wow population due to the advent of LFR.


Nobody cares about LFR, look at heroic progression and it's all paly/disc with a few mistweavers.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/28/2013 01:00 AMPosted by Jollnir
This may not be a popular opion, but I believe at least part of the "problem" is raiding has been opened up to a larger percent of the wow population due to the advent of LFR.


Nobody cares about LFR, look at heroic progression and it's all paly/disc with a few mistweavers.


Yep, every guild is taking nothing but Pallies, Disc Priests, and Mistweavers, Rexoss. *bonks* Nope, no one's taking anything else.
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100 Human Priest
18300
A wild meter hor appears!
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
A wild meter hor appears!


Twisted...your transmog...we need to have an intervention. :(
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100 Human Priest
18300
fixed, and this is the first link I found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wH5WvWB7m0
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
fixed, and this is the first link I found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wH5WvWB7m0


I can't stop laughing.

Also: A+ on the new mog. :D
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Yep, every guild is taking nothing but Pallies, Disc Priests, and Mistweavers, Rexoss. *bonks* Nope, no one's taking anything else.

Well to be fair, some heroic fights are 3 healed, and having another class as the 3rd healer doesn't really prevent you from having SSh / EF-IH blanket in place to mitigate raid burst. (THIS IS A JOKE, CALM DOWN)

People complain about LFR... LFR doesn't matter, if a disc priest / holy pally is the only player in the LFR that has high healing done, and still had high overhealing, the LFR group didn't need 6 healers. It'd be great is the damage that the healers (well druids/shamans) without absorbs was high enough that they could just "fistweave"/"atonement" their boredom away.

Normal modes have low enough boss damage that typically you don't need higher effective health to survive raid burst.

Heroic modes prove to players that they need some combination of DR CD's or higher effective health via absorbs/vigor to progress though the content without the need to get additional ilvl to up your raid's max HP's and non-absorb healer output. If the whole raid needs more gear to progress, then progression gets pushed back, which means you farm less bosses on heroic, which means you get less gear... the cycle of progression is cruel to those who don't min/max not only their character but also their comp.
Edited by Pitkanen on 4/28/2013 9:38 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
04/28/2013 09:37 AMPosted by Pitkanen
Yep, every guild is taking nothing but Pallies, Disc Priests, and Mistweavers, Rexoss. *bonks* Nope, no one's taking anything else.

Well to be fair, some heroic fights are 3 healed, and having another class as the 3rd healer doesn't really prevent you from having SSh / EF-IH blanket in place to mitigate raid burst. (THIS IS A JOKE, CALM DOWN)

People complain about LFR... LFR doesn't matter, if a disc priest / holy pally is the only player in the LFR that has high healing done, and still had high overhealing, the LFR group didn't need 6 healers. It'd be great is the damage that the healers (well druids/shamans) without absorbs was high enough that they could just "fistweave"/"atonement" their boredom away.

Normal modes have low enough boss damage that typically you don't need higher effective health to survive raid burst.

Heroic modes prove to players that they need some combination of DR CD's or higher effective health via absorbs/vigor to progress though the content without the need to get additional ilvl to up your raid's max HP's and non-absorb healer output. If the whole raid needs more gear to progress, then progression gets pushed back, which means you farm less bosses on heroic, which means you get less gear... the cycle of progression is cruel to those who don't min/max not only their character but also their comp.


Mm. See, it's a completely different game in 25 man content. You need your bubbles, but you also need your burst. Bubbles can't burst. And on any spread encounter, you need your maintenance to keep everyone up during ticking damage when you can't pile them into Healing Rain.
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90 Pandaren Priest
0
Heroic modes prove to players that they need some combination of DR CD's or higher effective health via absorbs/vigor to progress though the content without the need to get additional ilvl to up your raid's max HP's and non-absorb healer output. If the whole raid needs more gear to progress, then progression gets pushed back, which means you farm less bosses on heroic, which means you get less gear... the cycle of progression is cruel to those who don't min/max not only their character but also their comp.


You're stretching the definition of the word need quite a bit. Claiming heroic modes absolutely need DR CD's/mitigation implies they cannot be done without these things. And in many cases they certainly can be done without them. Whether or not it's optimal is a different matter. But DR CD's/mitigation aren't necessarily always optimal. Sometimes reactive burst healing, mobility, or something else that doesn't fall into the "absorb" category is optimal. What is "optimal" isn't always the same from encounter to encounter. In most situations it's optimal to have a balance of these things. Pretending absorbs are super amazing and every other manner of utility or "niche" in healing is magically inferior is just wrong.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
You're stretching the definition of the word need quite a bit. Claiming heroic modes absolutely need DR CD's/mitigation implies they cannot be done without these things. And in many cases they certainly can be done without them. Whether or not it's optimal is a different matter. But DR CD's/mitigation aren't necessarily always optimal. Sometimes reactive burst healing, mobility, or something else that doesn't fall into the "absorb" category is optimal. What is "optimal" isn't always the same from encounter to encounter. In most situations it's optimal to have a balance of these things. Pretending absorbs are super amazing and every other manner of utility or "niche" in healing is magically inferior is just wrong.
Yeah. Need as defined by "need in order to defeat encounter at the minimum ilvl/gear possible". Which is the same as optimal I supposed. The question really is... how much of a difference in ilvl is there between the minimum required for optimal and the minimum required for absorb-less. Is it currently small enough that you can say that raid design / health-damage ratio balance really shouldn't be improved upon looking forward towards t16 when due to gear scaling all players will have 30+% more output but only 15% more health, resulting in raid damage increasing 15% relative to health.

Mm. See, it's a completely different game in 25 man content. You need your bubbles, but you also need your burst. Bubbles can't burst. And on any spread encounter, you need your maintenance to keep everyone up during ticking damage when you can't pile them into Healing Rain.

I do both. Pally is 5/13H in 10's. Shaman is 25's. Disc/Paladin(HR on melee, HS/EF on ranged) can both do competitive maintenance on raid health when compared to other classes, that shouldn't misrepresented. In 25's you have many more healer spots to fill, but you can afford to bring the same or even less DR/absorb healers compared to 10 man since you can stack DPS 3 smoke bombs, 2 AMs, 2 shouts... etc. Which means you can have a lot more class diversity. Which is just another reason why 25's are more epic.
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90 Troll Druid
8735
A possible solution is to make absorbs work like living seed, where they are completely consumed if a player takes any damage. So, if you have a 30k absorb on someone and they take 50k damage, 30k damage gets absorbed. But if that person only takes 5k damage, only 5k is absorbed, and the other 25k gets wasted or overhealed.

Currently, absorbs are superior to other heals because they always heal first and effectively increase hp. If they were fully consumed on damage taken, healers would have to use them more carefully in order to avoid wasting them. Because of this, smaller absorbs would be more favorable, and healers would have to use their other heals more.
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93 Troll Priest
12835
A possible solution is to make absorbs work like living seed, where they are completely consumed if a player takes any damage. So, if you have a 30k absorb on someone and they take 50k damage, 30k damage gets absorbed. But if that person only takes 5k damage, only 5k is absorbed, and the other 25k gets wasted or overhealed.

Currently, absorbs are superior to other heals because they always heal first and effectively increase hp. If they were fully consumed on damage taken, healers would have to use them more carefully in order to avoid wasting them. Because of this, smaller absorbs would be more favorable, and healers would have to use their other heals more.


Or just reduce bubble's lifetime to ~5 secs.
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