How to fix OP absorbs

90 Gnome Priest
3935
In PvP perspective....

1. My Holy Priest spec does more healing than my Disc Priest spec, even including shields.

2. Disc priests can't crit anymore, which is a HUGE change to healing. Absorbs are all we have, man.

3. Shields are pre-emptive healing. Disc Priests are all about shields. In this patch, we have no "Oh, !@#$" button, so this scenario....

NEW WAY:
- You shield the player for 15% of the incoming damage.
- He gets hit for 130k
- You absorb 20k and still needs to heal 110k


...would be very devastating for a Disc Priest since it would require around 2 spells (in PvP gear) in order to make it happen.

4. Honestly, the only absorbs we have are Power Word: Shield (with 12-14 second debuff that prevent recast), Divine Aegis (requires a crit), and Spirit Shell (which changes our most powerful heals into absorbs for 12 seconds and requires stacking, which makes it almost useless in PvP).

5. Thus, this change would cause Disc Priests to be heavily reliant on other healers in order to even survive. Therefore, you'd have a spec with crap heals, crap DPS, and very little damage mitigation.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7200
As it stands now yes this would be a massive nerf to Disc, however, they could also go back to what they originally said and make it to where disc actually likes to cast a heal now and then rather than just bubble people.

All the classes rely on like 2-3 abilities to do most of there healing i'd like to see more variance in what we do fights that different ways of doing things is rewarded making certain spells more attractive.

They said they wanted us to make more choices on what spell to use, and yet I feel like we use the same darn stuff over and over again.
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90 Human Paladin
10655
Nothing is incredibly OP right now. No specific healer is making or breaking fights. In 25man a good mix is going to outdo stacking paladins or disc priests any day. The only part that can be construed as unbalanced is those would be the first two classes to bring two of. That's not OP, they just fit well for this tier.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
Yeah. Need as defined by "need in order to defeat encounter at the minimum ilvl/gear possible". Which is the same as optimal I supposed. The question really is... how much of a difference in ilvl is there between the minimum required for optimal and the minimum required for absorb-less.


Hate to break it to you but the words need and optimal have different definitions and meanings. I suppose if you're trying to say X is needed to defeat encounter Y at the absolute minimum ilvl/gear level possible then yes, it's implied X would have to be optimal. But this implies encounter Y cannot be defeated with an ilvl/gear level below this value. Forgive me, but this condition almost never applies. When talking about heals vs absorbs the only way it could apply is if mechanic X did more damage than your health pool, was unavoidable and couldn't be circumvented in some other fashion.

In terms of your question... I suppose it would depend upon the encounter. There are situations where the utility of absorbs isn't all that valuable. In the vast majority of situations where you "need" the absorbs you don't actually need them at all. The truth of the matter is for the most part absorbs make things easier to deal with, rather than possible to deal with.

As it stands now yes this would be a massive nerf to Disc, however, they could also go back to what they originally said and make it to where disc actually likes to cast a heal now and then rather than just bubble people.


It's funny you bring this up. I seem to remember a change to the way critical heals worked for Discipline Priests. It was something about keeping the DA almost exactly the same on critical heals but lowering their healing output. What you just said is why I thought this change was... out there.

Just to elaborate.... I think part of the problem with absorbs is the ratio of absorbs to healing brought on absorb capable healing specs. The healing should be the much larger contributor in this ratio. Case and point, Discipline PoH when the DA had been raised from 30% to 50% while the spell still had guaranteed DA. It wasn't a problem because the DA was guaranteed. It was a problem because of the DA percentage bonus. When you're looking at a 35k PoH heal with a 28k PoH DA you're probably going to abuse that DA. When you're looking at a 35k PoH heal with a 11k DA it's a different story.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7200
Absorbs are incredibly OP right now. Does that mean I don't want to see those classes do absorbs. No I don't think so. I mean there in my group helping keep the group up, and while I like to top meters when possible I don't pin my hopes on healing meters.

I would like to see paladins rely less on their mastery, and I'd like to see disc priests rely less on divine aegis. I think we can let them keep Power Word" Shield it's an integral part of the priest class.

That being said I'd like to see all the classes get to use there spell toolkits more.
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90 Troll Priest
11170
I think most of you are missing the point here.
The main problem is not raid comp or who heals more.
The main problem is that priests and pallies are making every other healer class bored! (at least on normal modes)
It really SUCKS not to be able to do your job!
I get that most of you are concerned about numbers and progression, but the real problem is taking the fun away for a lot of people!


Do heroic content and I guarantee you that your co-healers will never be bored. I think that if my cohealers and I were any "less" bored on H Iron Qon last night, we would have exploded into piles of healer angst.


So, you want blizz to just give a middle finger to non-hardcore non-absorb healers (aka TONS of players)?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
So, you want blizz to just give a middle finger to non-hardcore non-absorb healers (aka TONS of players)?


No. There is plenty to do in normal modes even if its easier. I'm not directing this at you but just speaking generally now it's really tiring seeing all of these healer spat threads popping up one after the other.

I can only go from personal experience but I have found again and again and again and again and again that all healers do pretty dang well in normal and heroic modes with problems in between with all. Could there things be fixed? Yes. I could list page after page of things that could be fixed for every healer and eventually be fixed. People also need to REALLY start looking at the overall picture(again not directed at you but a general tone speaking to all the threads).

1)What is your comp for normal or heroic modes?

2)Who are your healer partners?

3)How well do you work together?

4)How well do you communicate?

5)What is the fight you are doing?

6)What mechanics are in the fight?

7)What is the skill of your group?

8)How much numbers can they pull?

Everyone of these things and more greatly influence how each guild approach a fight if they discuss it or not but I can honestly say even if NOTHING is said the healers who understand and work well with each other easily accommodate.

I can say right now from the heroic bosses I killed and attempted(been having attendance issues or else would have been 5/13 by now) either way is that having a health mix of healers BEATS EVERYTHING else. In 25 and 10 man for an overwhelming majority of guilds.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8340
I think most of you are missing the point here.
The main problem is not raid comp or who heals more.
The main problem is that priests and pallies are making every other healer class bored! (at least on normal modes)
It really SUCKS not to be able to do your job!
I get that most of you are concerned about numbers and progression, but the real problem is taking the fun away for a lot of people!

Do heroic content and I guarantee you that your co-healers will never be bored. I think that if my cohealers and I were any "less" bored on H Iron Qon last night, we would have exploded into piles of healer angst.

So, you want blizz to just give a middle finger to non-hardcore non-absorb healers (aka TONS of players)?


You have to understand though, if you are overhealing content, it is your raid leader that is trivializing your job, not the disc priest. Whenever healing becomes a sniping war then healer balance is pretty much impossible. Whoever has the best sniping abilities will outheal everyone else. This is not a problem unique to disc, it is a result of sub-optimal raid organization.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
So, you want blizz to just give a middle finger to non-hardcore non-absorb healers (aka TONS of players)?


No. But I want you to understand that as Holy, in heroic-level content, I completely crap all over absorb healers. I think Paladins are the only ones who can keep up with me. Same with Druids. On any fight where we're spread, or there is movement, etc, Druids and Holy Priests stomp all over everyone. Disc Priests can't keep up because, quite honestly, Atonement isn't enough to keep people alive and their only other options are the 90 talent, PoM, and bubble.

Oh, I can bubble all day long. I did it on H Durumu as Disc. I'll do it again when we get to H Animus. You don't even need the meta to manage it (notice the lack of mine thanks to bad RNG and me only having 14 secrets after three weeks!!!1!!!). You just need a certain level of Spirit, and a certain willingness to expose yourself to a completely mind-numb, brain dead playstyle.

Oh, it works. But I guarantee you that if I was Holy, I'd put out close to double the performance of my Disc Priest on those fights. Why? Because Disc has a wall, as has been pointed out by other posters. It has a wall and you can hit it rather easily. My only limitation as Holy is my mana bar.

None of these healers are tuned for normal content. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. We are all tuned for the heroic encounters. The damage in Heroic ToT is really quite insane. The only other way to simulate the amount of stress on each individual healer that you see in a heroic encounter is, quite honestly, to severely underheal normal content. And even then, I'm not sure the damage will be high enough.

Edited to Add: Just for an example, our Consorts attempts looked like this last night:

Holy Priest
Druid
Paladin 1

Every single attempt. After those top three, you got a mix between the two Disc Priests (Yes, TWO, and they STILL could not suppress the HPriest and Druid), a Shaman, and the second Paladin.
Edited by Tiriel on 4/29/2013 10:58 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7200
I will agree in heroic though I haven't done any there probably is enough damage going around for everyone that you need not worry about who's got what.

That being said it's true that many people will never ever see a heroic encounter. Perhaps they should just get rid of more healers if there not needing that much healing. Not a bad suggestion and a lot of groups as the expansion goes on will heal with less and less healers as they get better geared.

Still I think the absorb vs. Heal things needs to be toned down a little I haven't a problem with it being there just a little less reliance on it. I doubt disc priests would QQ that much if they could do a little more healing and a little less absorbing.

Paladins would be fine if there mastery accounted for only 20% of there healing rather than 40%

Shamans would like a little help in the spread department.

Were entitled to dream I think.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11435
No. But I want you to understand that as Holy, in heroic-level content, I completely crap all over absorb healers. I think Paladins are the only ones who can keep up with me. Same with Druids. On any fight where we're spread, or there is movement, etc, Druids and Holy Priests stomp all over everyone. Disc Priests can't keep up because, quite honestly, Atonement isn't enough to keep people alive and their only other options are the 90 talent, PoM, and bubble.

Oh, I can bubble all day long. I did it on H Durumu as Disc. I'll do it again when we get to H Animus. You don't even need the meta to manage it (notice the lack of mine thanks to bad RNG and me only having 14 secrets after three weeks!!!1!!!). You just need a certain level of Spirit, and a certain willingness to expose yourself to a completely mind-numb, brain dead playstyle.

Oh, it works. But I guarantee you that if I was Holy, I'd put out close to double the performance of my Disc Priest on those fights. Why? Because Disc has a wall, as has been pointed out by other posters. It has a wall and you can hit it rather easily. My only limitation as Holy is my mana bar.

None of these healers are tuned for normal content. I'm sorry, but it's the truth. We are all tuned for the heroic encounters. The damage in Heroic ToT is really quite insane. The only other way to simulate the amount of stress on each individual healer that you see in a heroic encounter is, quite honestly, to severely underheal normal content. And even then, I'm not sure the damage will be high enough.

Edited to Add: Just for an example, our Consorts attempts looked like this last night:

Holy Priest
Druid
Paladin 1

Every single attempt. After those top three, you got a mix between the two Disc Priests (Yes, TWO, and they STILL could not suppress the HPriest and Druid), a Shaman, and the second Paladin.


Thank you for this post.
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90 Tauren Druid
9115
i know i hate healing with discs in my group.
u can say that recount numbers dont mater but thats not true.
charts matter cause people look at them and the judge accordingly.
and if there is a disc priest in group im gonna loose at least 15% off my numbers if not more.
and if ur in some lfr and u wipe and the dbags wanna start pointiong fingers u can bet that recounts gonna get linked and u might get kicked.
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90 Human Priest
16465
If lfr'ers are linking recount, the general populations' response should be, "healing meters don't matter". If that's not the general opinion from the player base, than these posts should be filled with people coming in out of the woodwork with reasons for why healing meters don't matter.

There was a time when "healing meters don't matter" was the general opinion.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
7200
Were naturally competitive people. We tell everyone else it doesn't matter. But personally, and within the group you'd always rather be the healer at the top of the meters, and respected for being awesome, than the one at the bottom.

Truthfully it shouldn't matter, but it can be worth looking at if your trying to discover problems you might be having. Now World of logs is much better it has a lot more information than recount but in game where we might not have time to look at WOL's then it is helpful.

I find turning them off so there running but not showing is much better for me i concentrate more on what i'm doing. But it brings pride to meself when i'm near the top.

who could blame us. Is it bad to be a super star ?
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90 Tauren Druid
10975
Resto Druids had it made for so long it's somewhat natural for us to cry a little now that other healers can hold their own against us. Those that say "meters don't matter" have never played World of Warcraft. If you can't carry your weight, you aren't going to make it far in a raid. Yes, absorbs are a pain in the !@# compared to straight healing....

However, in the issue of "real" raiding, where healers are out to progress their guild and clear content, meters DON'T matter. What matters at that point is who is doing what they are told to do as a healing team, and numbers are $%^- at that point. I personally want to top every fight, just because, but to do that as a resto would mean not sticking to my healing assignments, not being part of my healing group and not specifically focusing on doing what needs to be done, which is keeping people alive instead of watching my rotations, casts, and meters.

That's just my opinion......
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90 Undead Priest
7260
Healing meters don't matter. And like in the real world, perception is reality.

In content you out gear and snipe each other, disc can suppress the other healers, making it look extremely strong.

But it's not an accurate representation of the spec. When damage gets intense, disc runs completely out of steam.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
As far as I'm aware, it is more of a 10-man restricting healer composition issue and I believe some people here come from a 25-man perspective such as akatangus and tiriel where healing comp. isn't generally as much of an issue.

When you have to look at 2 healing heroic fights on 10-man it will definately feels like it matters whether you have certain classes if you want to progress. I'll leave that to the heroic 10-man guilds since my guild failed to kill lei shen and isn't much for heroic content but I doubt any guild progressing through on 10-man don't use either a disc, and holy paladin, or both. Though the sample size is small it seems like most 10-man boss kills involve 60%+ disc/holy pally representation. It's slightly disconcerting when you guild has niether of those in it's roster and it feels like if you did want to progress it would be more difficult than neccessary.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
^
That's a heroic encounter type of deal though. The "bring the player, not the class" concept has never applied to hard modes. If you want the best chance to down the encounter you field the best composition for that encounter. It may seem lame but it's not like it's unique to this tier. There is a reason the super serious, hardcore progression guilds have a stable of alts at arms reach :). It would be inaccurate to say 25 man guilds don't face similar issues as well.

I'd also argue a lot of the "this spec is OP" complaints are often more a result of the encounter design than anything else. There were quite a few encounters in t12-t14 where one spec was extremely strong on a given fight entirely because of the mechanics in the encounter, and not because the spec was necessarily OP. T15 is no different, and every future tier will probably include more of the same.
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90 Human Priest
16465
Well, we're a heroic 10 group that brings the player, not the class. If we do hit a wall of a boss that can be cheesed with some ability that we don't have because of our class composition, we just hit our heads against the other bosses until we can overcome the disadvantage with gear.

And then there's the perspective of welcoming a challenge. Who is raiding at the heroic level and expecting some class gimmick to simplify every single fight? I feel the community (which is an opinion formed from reading the self-selected forum-goers) isn't looking for a challenge anymore.

For personal credibility, our 10 man runs with the two 'worst healers eva!' a resto druid and resto shaman (and me). Our tanks aren't a monk or prot paladin, so we must totally be gimping ourselves with a warrior/dk. We have 3 melee dps and 2 ranged, so we must totally be shooting ourselves in the feet. Or maybe the 'best classes' and the 'worst classes' aren't as game-breaking as forum posters would have you thinking.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12820
Well, we're a heroic 10 group that brings the player, not the class. If we do hit a wall of a boss that can be cheesed with some ability that we don't have because of our class composition, we just hit our heads against the other bosses until we can overcome the disadvantage with gear.

And then there's the perspective of welcoming a challenge. Who is raiding at the heroic level and expecting some class gimmick to simplify every single fight? I feel the community (which is an opinion formed from reading the self-selected forum-goers) isn't looking for a challenge anymore.

For personal credibility, our 10 man runs with the two 'worst healers eva!' a resto druid and resto shaman (and me). Our tanks aren't a monk or prot paladin, so we must totally be gimping ourselves with a warrior/dk. We have 3 melee dps and 2 ranged, so we must totally be shooting ourselves in the feet. Or maybe the 'best classes' and the 'worst classes' aren't as game-breaking as forum posters would have you thinking.


Well, this is kind of why I was trying to distinguish between absolutely necessary and optimal earlier in this thread. Encounter X may heavily favor a Discipline Priest, so much so that not bringing one is arguably gimping yourself. This does not mean encounter X is impossible without a Discipline Priest. It can still be done without a Discipline Priest, it just might require a strategy change or better play by the raid as a whole.

An excellent example of this would be Heroic Hagara in DS when it was relevant. A Blood DK could cheese focused assault to some extent (so could Bears, but for different reasons). This lead to people QQing when they didn't have access to anything but a block tank. The amusing part of this example is focused assault was able to be "cheesed" with a block tank too, by range taunting/kiting/bouncing the boss around until the ability ended.

The point being people like to think they are unable to perform better, or there is no way they can tweak generalized strategy X for this boss to alleviate or completely remove disadvantages which result from their raid composition.

In terms of how this relates to healers, or absorbs vs healing.... Well, I have difficulty seeing how there is a huge problem with an absorb healer being strong on encounter X. There are situations where non-absorb healers are strong on encounter Y. It's not like the game is broken, or the spec in question is overpowered, simply because it's strong for one or even a handful of encounters. It just means you have to improvise, much like how you described.
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