ICY Veins Changes Frost's Gem Recommendations

90 Goblin Mage
12715
I just tried it. I upped the value of haste in AskMrRobot, and I seemed to get a pretty significant dps boost so far. I got to keep testing it.
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90 Worgen Mage
20350
IV paid a few high-end raiders to "revise" some of the guides. Blatty was commissioned for Mages.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
9265
I've got myself regemmed to Haste now. See how raiding goes this week.
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Rentrenus\Frygyd, I've noticed you have used int\haste gems as opposed to pure haste gems in your prismatic slots - any reason for it considering the recommendation is haste>int?
Edited by Trekie on 4/29/2013 12:47 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Mage
13735
Rentrenus\Frygyd, I've noticed you have used int\haste gems as opposed to pure haste gems in your prismatic slots - any reason for it considering the recommendation is haste>int?


Since you posted your question again, I might as well post my answer again:

Honestly, because it's the current recommendation on icy veins.

I'm more the messenger here than the expert. I'm really just relaying information and enjoy the discussion on the topic. Here's how I rationalize it:

Let's assume that 4.41 INT = 2.205 Haste; although I'm sure the actual numbers are not this clean, it will work for our purposes. Then compare a pure red, a pure yellow, and the orange gem with the suggested scale weights:

Red = 160 INT * 4.41 = 705.6
Yellow = 320 haste * 2.205 = 705.6
Orange = 80 INT + 160 Haste = 352.8+352.8 = 705.6

So points wise, they are the same, and there's no socket bonus to distinguish them. The only distinction between the three is the relative amounts of INT and HASTE that they provide.

My current suspicion is that orange gems are recommended in prismatic sockets because you are being able to simultaneously increase both stats. In the cast of yellow sockets, the socket bonus will typically make gemming pure haste worthwhile because the socket bonus often IS 80 INT or more (often 160 INT).

In other words, the question becomes whether you prefer pure int, pure haste, or equal parts of both. Icy Veins appears to be recommending equal parts of both.
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80 Draenei Shaman
7585
Will AMR ever jump on board with these new suggestions, or do they take a while to make sure the info is good?
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90 Blood Elf Mage
9265

Honestly, because it's the current recommendation on icy veins.


^

I will let others do the math. Math hurts my head.
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Rentrenus, firstly thank you and my apologies for posting twice. It's been a long day at the office. I had posted it but couldn't find it so I assumed I didn't submit properly. Thanks for being patient. I'll be honest, I'm still not clear as to why you use a int\haste gem in some instances and I'll see if I can explain. You mention haste improves proc chance for RPPM trinkets and once you have one - go all haste I believe is the recommendation. I recognize the stat weights you used are estimated and it's difficult to be accurate. In your specific case you have two RPPM trinkets. I'm interested in why you made the decision to use int\haste gems. I'm not trying to challenge your decision - I'm trying understand and provide my raid team better dps. I realize I could sim - based on what I've read - the sim process is likely no better than the logic you have provided. Your logic makes total sense to me but the use of the int\haste gems seems to be counter to your strategy around gemming. Any additional insight would be greatly apprecated.
Edited by Trekie on 4/29/2013 4:00 PM PDT
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90 Human Mage
7410
Can anyone show tests or something comparing the pure haste build against intellect/int+haste build? i mean real ingame test, not simulated. i have my set pointing at intellect right now, but my gear is not great.
Edited by Sunblaze on 4/29/2013 9:59 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
9265
Can anyone show tests or something comparing the pure haste build against intellect/int+haste build?


I believe Lhivera ran the numbers and came to this conclusion a while back. We also have Blatty who is a respected top raiding mage who made the recommendation to Icy-Veins.com who altered their website recommendations due to his input.

http://icy-veins.com/frost-mage-wow-pve-dps-gems-enchants-professions-consumables

If its good enough for Blatty .. it's good enough for me.
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80 Draenei Shaman
7585
Can anyone show tests or something comparing the pure haste build against intellect/int+haste build? i mean real ingame test, not simulated. i have my set pointing at intellect right now, but my gear is not great.


This is what I'm curious about as well. Is it just marginally better, or is it so much better that it's worth the price of re-gemming?
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90 Troll Mage
10120
04/30/2013 07:17 AMPosted by Chingalera
Can anyone show tests or something comparing the pure haste build against intellect/int+haste build? i mean real ingame test, not simulated. i have my set pointing at intellect right now, but my gear is not great.


This is what I'm curious about as well. Is it just marginally better, or is it so much better that it's worth the price of re-gemming?


I have two RPPM trinkets and when I simcraft, I would theoretically gain 1000 dps by regemming to haste.

So we're talking less than 1% difference.
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90 Human Mage
7410
if i regemed to haste i would have +800 haste, thats less than 2%. is it worth the intellect loss?
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90 Draenei Mage
13735
I have two RPPM trinkets and when I simcraft, I would theoretically gain 1000 dps by regemming to haste.

So we're talking less than 1% difference.


Isn't it the case though that it changes as you gear up? So at low levels, int beats haste, then int and haste start to be about equal, and then haste surpasses INT.

I think the key is figuring out when the turn-over concerns.

if i regemed to haste i would have +800 haste, thats less than 2%. is it worth the intellect loss?


I'm not batty or the maker of icy veins, so not really here to give advice, more to discuss the topic.

In your particular case though, it seems you are short hit, and you also only have one rppm trinket, so my guess is that int is still more valuable than haste - but that's just my guess and a smarter person could maybe prove me wrong.
Edited by Rentrenus on 4/30/2013 9:02 AM PDT
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Rentrenus, thanks for your post - makes total sense. I'll stay int\haste on my prismatic and red slots for now.
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90 Draenei Mage
13735
Rentrenus, thanks for your post - makes total sense. I'll stay int\haste on my prismatic and red slots for now.


Always happy to help a fellow Trekie >.>
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90 Troll Mage
12720
I switched to a gemming: Red: Reckless, Yellow: Quick, Blue: Lightning

Haste rating 13,xxx around 40% self buffed. Yesterday in ToT 25m i was pulling some very very descent numbers. ranked 17 on Jin'rohk and before:

Gemming: red: Brilliant, yellow: Reckless, Blue: Veiled

Haste rating 9,xxx I didn't come close to what I was able to do on Jin or any of the other fights.

Its only been one day of raiding, 2 more to go, so I need at least a couple weeks of testing. But so far Haste spec is doing quite well.

When I SIMC Haste v. Int the difference supposed was only like 1K saying i should be doing 151K v 150K dps...but in real life...the Haste spec just seemed OP and felt like i was getting more procs of BF and FoF.

Will keep update on what happens when I get my 4th Tier piece this week I hope!!
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90 Goblin Mage
15975
Remember, the sim is only going to show relative differences in dps. I have found the actual difference is much greater. My gear has changed not at all for 3 weeks pretty much, with the exception of the meta gem. Basically it has gone like this for Jin'rokh:

4/10 ID: 181k - Int gemming

4/24 ID: 213k - Haste gemming

5/1 ID: 232k - Haste gemming + Legendary Meta

I only have one RPPM trinket. I can tell you though, there is a marked difference in Breath of the Hydra procs as well as meta procs between the two gemming scenarios. I'm often over the GCD cap and very frequently below the 1 s cast time, but I keep slamming haste in there as much as possible because it is just overall more fun and more productive than int.

I often find myself saying "why am I casting so SLOW?!" then I look down at my cast bar and its at 1.3 s cast time. Yea, it makes that much of a difference. Hopefully I can replace the valor trinket soon and lose that haste proc and replace it with Cha'ye, dump some crit and start forging Mastery over crit.
Edited by Raves on 5/1/2013 10:42 AM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
6620
Jawne, thank you - will appreciate your future updates.
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