Why nerf Glyph of the Battle Healer

14 Night Elf Druid
50
When was this?
5.1 I think? The absorbs weren't nerfed, just the threshold to proc statue.
Remember that part of the reason Paladins look good on WoL is because almost everything we do gets credit on WoL's healing meters. If Druid and Monk Avoidance was tacked onto the healing meters, or Warriors criting shield blocks, they'd have big numbers as well, but they don't.
ShoR doesn't show up on healing meters. >_>
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90 Night Elf Warrior
16175
15k ?

on 25h we are talking about 30-40k hps from the glyph alone (the paladin going up to 70-80k hps). That's like bringing an extra half healer.

Yeah, I wonder why it's getting nerfed ...


Do you mean 30-40k hps including overhealing? I only saw a max of 15-20k on the logs I looked at in terms of actual healing. Mostly just looked at some of the higher damage logs from prot paladins on a couple fights (since I couldn't figure out a way to get WoL to rank a non-healing spec by their healing done)

On the note of Ox statue

And I don't think Ox statue was ever nerfed. The only changes I remember on the 5.2 PTR were when they halved the amount of damage you needed to proc it, but then they reversed that and put it back to where it was. Which is to say, I'm pretty sure they didn't change anything. Its weaker, but only because monks are moving out of their T14 4 piece, but its still plenty big enough to make whoever it goes on basically invulnerable if they don't do something stupid.
Edited by Asthas on 4/25/2013 1:44 PM PDT
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14 Night Elf Druid
50
04/25/2013 01:41 PMPosted by Asthas
Do you mean 30-40k hps including overhealing?
yes

Its weaker, but only because monks are moving out of their T14 4 piece
4pc doesn't affect statue guard, never has
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
ShoR doesn't show up on healing meters. >_>


Swap you it for the choice between Block and Barrier?
Edited by Wrathblood on 4/25/2013 1:54 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
More than anything I wish they'd remove the threat from it.

It's REALLY annoying having every single add make a straight-line run for our protection paladin, no matter where he is.
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90 Human Warrior
12850
04/25/2013 01:54 PMPosted by Wrathblood
ShoR doesn't show up on healing meters. >_>


Swap you it for the choice between Block and Barrier?


That's not even remotely funny :P

Besides, even if the heals show up on WoL (pretty sure they do but I haven't explicitly looked at my healing done ever) they're not exactly going to be Battle Healer levels of insanity. You're not bringing an extra half-healer by bringing a warrior with high vengeance to an encounter, at least not in my experience.

But then again, I'm an unwashed 10man normal mode raider right now, so what do I know ;)
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90 Night Elf Warrior
16175
Its weaker, but only because monks are moving out of their T14 4 piece
4pc doesn't affect statue guard, never has


Yea, just checked, you are right. Kinda just assumed it did all this time because the glyph affects it.
Edited by Asthas on 4/25/2013 2:13 PM PDT
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14 Night Elf Druid
50
Barrier, VR, and ER/SW/IV all show up on WoL as healing done.
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More than anything I wish they'd remove the threat from it.

It's REALLY annoying having every single add make a straight-line run for our protection paladin, no matter where he is.

They should remove threat from any heal for tanks.

They did it for frenzied regeneration and other heals for tanks all the way up to WotLK I believe. Specifically to counter tanks from using healing aggro to group up adds.
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90 Pandaren Monk
18865

Why does Shizune skip GotBM sometimes?


More than anything I wish they'd remove the threat from it.

It's REALLY annoying having every single add make a straight-line run for our protection paladin, no matter where he is.


because of that. Horridon, Tortos .. those fights have a lot of add management, that is already a headache to do ..

For example, on horridon I rather have the adds going straight to my healers (because 99% of the time I'm between them), instead of going straight to him while tanking the boss ... taunting adds inside the boss "model" is extremelly annoying and can cause targeting issues ..

On bats, you already need to MD them to the bat tank to prevent stray adds from eating healers ... if those stray adds go to him, they literally glue on him, and I'd have to manually taunt them off.

I don't need to tell you that those are recipes for wipes .. And considering that those fights are not that healing intensive, it's not a big deal to remove the glyphs ..

On any other fight, he might simply forget to put it back again or use some other glyph he likes.

If they remove the threat from the healing ... he could use it on every fight for all that I care =o
Edited by Leeflow on 4/25/2013 2:20 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
04/25/2013 02:07 PMPosted by Lowmaine


Swap you it for the choice between Block and Barrier?


That's not even remotely funny :P

Besides, even if the heals show up on WoL (pretty sure they do but I haven't explicitly looked at my healing done ever) they're not exactly going to be Battle Healer levels of insanity. You're not bringing an extra half-healer by bringing a warrior with high vengeance to an encounter, at least not in my experience.

But then again, I'm an unwashed 10man normal mode raider right now, so what do I know ;)


Battlehealer can do useful healing, but I think people are overstating how good it typically is. Its like having an extra couple Prayer of Mendings jumping around on the melee which, depending on the fight may or may not be useful. I find it typically has overhealing in the 50% range because there are decent chunks of time when the melee just hasn't taken any damage and it doesn't work on me. Even on fights with lots of AoE healing, an argument could be made that at least part of the value that isn't OH% just serves to increase healer OH%.

Plus, every class brings its usefulness in a different way. Battlehealer is at its best against low-to-medium levels of steady AoE damage. But its terrible against burst damage. You know what *is* good against burst, however? Demoralizing Banner which you can use in conjunction with Rallying Cry, either of which, I'd argue, are superior to Paladin's Devotion Aura because Devo Aura lasts a whopping 6 seconds.

You have to compare the whole package of abilities. No question, Paladins bring a bunch of utility even outside of Battle Healer (and I totally agree that there are some key boss mechanics that need to not be affected by Paladin immunity-abilities), but all tanks bring something interesting. Gorefiend's Grasp for DKs is just astounding for add-killing, and Warrior mobility+stuns can be fantastic. Paladins don't bring anything even vaguely close to those. Which class set of abilities is most useful depends on the situation.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13385
Barrier, VR, and ER/SW/IV all show up on WoL as healing done.


Sure, but Block is the centerpiece and its not there. That'd be like Paladins having ShoR show up, but SoI and WoG and SS and Battlehealer *not* show up. I recall certain folks arguing not that long ago that the Warrior T15 2p bonus was totally worthless because IV was totally worthless.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14390
Because it's overpowered as hell, that's why, and is still a very strong glyph.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
11375
The nerf to battle healer is needed to keep paladins from becoming a mandatory tank at the high level in the next tier. Almost every heroic boss fight highlights the strengths of the prot paladin mitigation kit. We are the only tank that can have our active mitigation for every single timed attack. I have an Shield of the Righteous up for every snapping attack on H Tortos. On H Horridon the combination of high Vengeance plus Sacred Shield allows me to take stacks up to 8-9 while my warrior or guardian druid co-tanks can barely survive past 6. We have the highest amount of mitigation available on almost every fight. Even Durumu makes our healing stronger since the debuff only affects outside heals.

If you don't believe how strong protection paladin healing is just take a look at the logs from my first kill of H Tortos: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/eg9kjplnjwzfstm1/sum/healingDone/?s=5270&e=5823

If played correctly a protection paladin with high vengeance is an entire healer. With bosses hitting even harder in the SoO raid and with paladins with higher haste we will be able to push out even more healing, and get an almost close to 100% uptime on Shield of the Righteous. This pushes the protection paladin to the top spot as tank in high level raiding. Tank Balance is the most important class balance in game since it can make a fight ridiculously harder or ridiculously easier.
Edited by Vadel on 4/25/2013 3:14 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
12850
Sure, but Block is the centerpiece and its not there. That'd be like Paladins having ShoR show up, but SoI and WoG and SS and Battlehealer *not* show up. I recall certain folks arguing not that long ago that the Warrior T15 2p bonus was totally worthless because IV was totally worthless.


Even still, our Barrier (and ER/IV/VR/hell let's even include Second Wind) isn't generating an extra half healer's worth of healing on us, or even much more the raid. That's a huge difference right there.

On the note of IV, IV is still pretty worthless in raids by virtue of the fact that it's competing with our AM (by consuming rage) and also by the fact that we're dropping ER to take it, which is a 1 minute cooldown that typically does more healing over the course of the fight by comparison. The 2 piece doesn't magically make IV better; it's still as crap as it's ever been.

The 2pc still affects just plain ol' Victory Rush; and even then it's still not the greatest thing on the planet (There could be better, but I relent it's less bad than I was initially thinking now that I've gotten to play with it a bit and seen on average how frequently it procs). Still doesn't mean I'm not gonna shuffle around pieces to get the most mileage out of gear possible versus just nailing my 2-set "because 2 piece!"
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90 Draenei Shaman
8755


That's not even remotely funny :P

Besides, even if the heals show up on WoL (pretty sure they do but I haven't explicitly looked at my healing done ever) they're not exactly going to be Battle Healer levels of insanity. You're not bringing an extra half-healer by bringing a warrior with high vengeance to an encounter, at least not in my experience.

But then again, I'm an unwashed 10man normal mode raider right now, so what do I know ;)


Battlehealer can do useful healing, but I think people are overstating how good it typically is. Its like having an extra couple Prayer of Mendings jumping around on the melee which, depending on the fight may or may not be useful. I find it typically has overhealing in the 50% range because there are decent chunks of time when the melee just hasn't taken any damage and it doesn't work on me. Even on fights with lots of AoE healing, an argument could be made that at least part of the value that isn't OH% just serves to increase healer OH%.

Plus, every class brings its usefulness in a different way. Battlehealer is at its best against low-to-medium levels of steady AoE damage. But its terrible against burst damage. You know what *is* good against burst, however? Demoralizing Banner which you can use in conjunction with Rallying Cry, either of which, I'd argue, are superior to Paladin's Devotion Aura because Devo Aura lasts a whopping 6 seconds.

You have to compare the whole package of abilities. No question, Paladins bring a bunch of utility even outside of Battle Healer (and I totally agree that there are some key boss mechanics that need to not be affected by Paladin immunity-abilities), but all tanks bring something interesting. Gorefiend's Grasp for DKs is just astounding for add-killing, and Warrior mobility+stuns can be fantastic. Paladins don't bring anything even vaguely close to those. Which class set of abilities is most useful depends on the situation.


It's a dual tank set up, it's not appropriate to view things so steamlined.

Grant it, I have not tanked this expansion at any form of raid level. But I have done quite a bit of heroic raid tanking in Wrath and Cataclysm. There was a reason why I was the off tank as a Warrior.

That doesn't justify the outlier that come with Protadins, or more so the complete Paladin toolkt in general. They key difference between when a Paladins toolkit is strong and when a Warriors toolkit is strong is pretty simple. A Warrior can make things a lot easier, a Paladin though can sometimes bypass or trivialize mechanics.

I'm still pretty firm on Blessing of Protection and Clemency STILL needing looked at. As of right now, those are the biggest most critical outliers. It makes Protadin and Holydin WAAAAY more desirable than they otherwise should be. I still think passive raid healing is retarded and should be taken away for non-healers regardless though. I'd perfer if things like Glyph of Battle Healer/AG/HTT (this should be baked into Resto)/VE and the likes should all downright be removed from the game. They're problematic, there's no if ands or buts about it.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14475
So... bout them Guardians...

Yup...

^.^
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90 Tauren Druid
13005
because between battle healer/bloodworms/guard(on some fights) its like having an extra healer, something needs to be toned down.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
90% of the healing done by Battle Healer is useless anyway, it doesn't change anything except another healer's overhealing save during high raid DTPS phases.

a 33% nerf to it is a bit much when you actually consider how little most of the healing it does affects your other healers.
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