Why nerf Glyph of the Battle Healer

14 Night Elf Druid
0
Arguing that Battle Healer is 90% useless and then saying a 33% nerf to it is huge... what.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0

Why does Shizune skip GotBM sometimes?


More than anything I wish they'd remove the threat from it.

It's REALLY annoying having every single add make a straight-line run for our protection paladin, no matter where he is.


because of that. Horridon, Tortos .. those fights have a lot of add management, that is already a headache to do ..

For example, on horridon I rather have the adds going straight to my healers (because 99% of the time I'm between them), instead of going straight to him while tanking the boss ... taunting adds inside the boss "model" is extremelly annoying and can cause targeting issues ..

On bats, you already need to MD them to the bat tank to prevent stray adds from eating healers ... if those stray adds go to him, they literally glue on him, and I'd have to manually taunt them off.

I don't need to tell you that those are recipes for wipes .. And considering that those fights are not that healing intensive, it's not a big deal to remove the glyphs ..

On any other fight, he might simply forget to put it back again or use some other glyph he likes.

If they remove the threat from the healing ... he could use it on every fight for all that I care =o


Tortos: Position statue between bat spawn point and pally. Or, far enough away from Tortos so AoE taunt doesn't touch him.

Profit. :P
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90 Night Elf Druid
14475
Arguing that Battle Healer is 90% useless and then saying a 33% nerf to it is huge... what.


This.

If its highly useless due to massive overhealing... nerfing it down by 33% means its actually LESS useless by overhealing for less. This assumes of course that the 90% comment is true.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13975
On the one hand, I do think the amount of throughput GotBH puts out and its value is sometimes overstated. On the other hand, there's no denying that its one heck of a powerful glyph and the nerf was probably warranted.

The thing that annoys me is that, imo, the aspect of Paladins (not just tanks) that's most obviously screaming out for a nerf is the way DS and HoP allows you to largely ignore certain mechanics. You could solve this by having TP/Hard Stare/etc not be cleared by these mechanics, or, more messily, take HoP off Clemency and probably also make HoP not self-castable. This still gives Holy Pallies some nice utility (though less than before), while making Prot Pallies a lot less able to handle certain mechanics entirely on their own.

A Prot pally could thus clear stacks once on their own with DS, but not repeatedly with HoP+Clemency. So a prot pally would make cheesing the mechanic easier, but not that much easier than with any other tank and the other Pallies would still be doing the bulk of the work.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
On the other hand, there's no denying that its one heck of a powerful glyph and the nerf was probably warranted.


That doesn't really change just because of the nerf though.

The reason it's powerful is that it's a basically free, uncontested option that has no real competition. The same goes for Seal of Insight really.
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100 Human Warrior
13670
So... bout them Guardians...

Yup...

^.^


YOU DON'T EVEN RAID ANYMORE :P

...."yet."

>_> <_<
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
tbh I'd kill for a glyph worth using on blood

we have 2 that extend range and should be baseline things no question (pestilence and death grip), and our third spot could be empty with no negative effect whatsoever 99% of the time
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
Arguing that Battle Healer is 90% useless and then saying a 33% nerf to it is huge... what.


"a bit much" equates to "huge" how exactly?

The glyph is overpowered, and likely still will be even in its nerfed state. Even so, the glyph is really just a way to pad meters in most situations, barring heavy raid damage, as I stated before.

The best option for it, imo, would be to turn it into an ability we can cast with a cooldown, but I doubt Paladins really need to have an additional raid cooldown, even if it is largely only viable for Prot.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13975
Not necessarily. Its not a binary decision: free = bad, tradeoff = good. SoI is part of the tank's survivability package, just like Leader of the Pack. What do you give up to get LotP?

GotBM is similar just with the minor distinction of being raid utility instead of tank survivability. Arguing that its OP simply because its free utility is ridiculous. What do Warriors give up to use Demoralizing Banner when they already have Rallying Cry?

The valid argument, which I agree with, is that GotBM gives *too much* raid utility. Nerfing the % reduces the amount of healing and thus utility. In that case we're just haggling over the correct %. You could argue that the correct amount of healing GotBM should be generating is zero, and that Paladins have plenty of utility (or survivability in the case of SoI) even without that ability. And that may be true, but its a fairly complicated argument to make.

Additionally, while I generally agree that glyphs being no-brainers is poor design, WoW has a bunch of talents and glyphs that are used almost 100% of the time by certain classes and specs. How often do Warlocks really go for something other than Kil'jadeen's Cunning or Glyph of Siphon Life? As we've discussed in this very thread, Prot Pallies don't always go for GotBH and there are reasonably valid reasons for doing so.
Edited by Wrathblood on 4/25/2013 10:06 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19110
I hope my healers are ready for that nerf.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
04/25/2013 05:54 PMPosted by Darpalta
a 33% nerf to it is a bit much
This is what you said, Darp.

How is it "a bit much" when
90% of the healing done by Battle Healer is useless anyway
Please lead me through the monstrous leap in logic here.

Like Rijda said there's workarounds for Battle Healer threat, and it's honestly "playing better." You, Wrathblood, are latching onto that as if it means something - Battle Healer is only as relatively strong as it is in the 10H difficulty, not in 25H. That makes a huge difference since Eflow's Pally tank can afford to drop it in that 25M, but it's not the same in 10H since the healing threat is substantially less but the relative benefit is even higher. There is not a single fight in T15 10H where I will drop Battle Healer, EVER.

Even playing my (comparatively) undergeared Prot Paladin at an average or above-average level at best, I can see the difference in raid healing. It's hilarious that anyone is trying to justify it as weak, incidental healing, healing that mostly overheals, or healing that doesn't matter. It's just as hilarious to see Wrathblood continually ignore that HoP-cheesing fights is not at all specific to Paladins.
Edited by Kangarooster on 4/25/2013 10:49 PM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
8985
Because it's overpowered as hell, that's why, and is still a very strong glyph.
Not a direct reply to this poster, but reminded me:

Remember when SoT was "too good" as an ability, because "not even paladins are using Seal of Insight to tank, and Seal of Insight is the intended tanking Seal"? Quotes are paraphrases.

It's as if they lacked foresight.
Edited by Guidance on 4/25/2013 11:18 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
04/25/2013 11:17 PMPosted by Guidance
Because it's overpowered as hell, that's why, and is still a very strong glyph.
Not a direct reply to this poster, but reminded me:

Remember when SoT was "too good" as an ability, because "not even paladins are using Seal of Insight to tank, and Seal of Insight is the intended tanking Seal"? Quotes are paraphrases.

It's as if they lacked foresight.


Nonono.

It's as if they lacked ... *sunglasses* Insight. On the Truth.
Edited by Slashlove on 4/25/2013 11:24 PM PDT
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
I never saw SoI being referred to as the tank Seal before they made that change. I'm under the impression their restructuring of Seals like that was really a change made very late, as in after-the-beta stage.

So yeah, there are going to be unforeseen consequences. It would be extremely foolish to bash the developers over that rather than their change in mindset.

Like, correct me if I'm wrong but I never saw the developers say that SoI was intended to be the tank Seal in beta or anything. It stands to reason that since Paladin tanks were using the highest DPS seal since all of Cataclysm (hell, before that), that they'd continue to do so.
Edited by Kangarooster on 4/25/2013 11:27 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
14075
04/25/2013 10:48 PMPosted by Kangarooster
It's hilarious that anyone is trying to justify it as weak, incidental healing, healing that mostly overheals, or healing that doesn't matter.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c07gkg2bsgyppypy/details/0/?s=8073&e=8596

That's our Durumu kill tonight. My Battle Healer healing (Battle Insight) appears to be only 21% overheal. Overall on all attempts, it looks like 15% overheal.

It's just one fight, but there's an example showing that it's mostly effective healing, as long as you don't bring "too many" healers. We had 7, for the record.

I do think Glyph of the Battle Healer is somewhat OP, and I thought it was OP from the day they first announced that Seal of Insight was for tanking, and I tanked a raid boss with it (dogs in MSV).

On any fight where I'm not in danger, it feels fine, but fights where I have high Vengeance, it just feels OP.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
Something I don't think people are understanding. Just because your healing isn't necessarily overhealing doesn't mean it isn't putting other peoples' heals into overhealing.

Are the 8-20k random heals enough to change a healer's mind about healing a target in a given situation? No? Then its effectively useless even if it appears to not be useless on a meter.

I would be hard pressed to find a log that had a paladin running GotBH one week and not the next with very little changing between weeks, but if I (or anyone else) could, you would likely see a small impact on the overhealing your healers did, without much change in their total number of casts and when they did those casts.

If light raid damage is going out, either smart AoE heals are going to get to the person one way or another, or a HoT will deal with them. If its heavy raid damage, I already conceded that point as one of the only times Battle Healer is truly useful healing - though I suppose when you're offtanking and your co-tank is getting his head smashed into the proverbial meat grinder, it might be useful then as well.
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100 Human Priest
8575
04/25/2013 07:38 PMPosted by Fasc
Arguing that Battle Healer is 90% useless and then saying a 33% nerf to it is huge... what.


This.

If its highly useless due to massive overhealing... nerfing it down by 33% means its actually LESS useless by overhealing for less. This assumes of course that the 90% comment is true.


I fail to see how reducing healing done with no other change makes something less useless, barring another Anub'whatever his name was from Wrath where more healing was actually detrimental to the raid. What fight are you doing where you think, "Hm, 30% of my SoI attacks healing random raiders is alright, but I really want 20% of my SoI attacks healing random raiders!"

I get really annoyed when people look at overhealing and assume it is a terrible thing and less overhealing is imperative. Overhealing is not a bad thing. The problem people should have with overhealing is that it can represent mana, global cooldowns, and perhaps spell cooldowns that could have been used on either actual healing or dpsing the boss or moving from/to some type of mechanic. If you had a button that healed the entire raid for ten billion health every .001 seconds for 4 hours for the cost of 5 mana, you would push the button despite it being essentially 100% overheal. If you are fighting 25H Horridon during his enrage and you have to spam heals on the tank so he doesn't evaporate, you don't consider yourself bad if the tank dodges all the attacks for ten seconds and you end up overhealing. You precast your heals and what happens happens. Glyph of the Battle Healer isn't free healing, precisely - you have the opportunity cost of a Major Glyph slot. That said, it's crazy good utility as is, and will likely remain so even after a 33% nerf.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
It stands to reason that since Paladin tanks were using the highest DPS seal since all of Cataclysm (hell, before that), that they'd continue to do so.


Truth was already hilariously overpowered anyway, even without SoI being some "tanking seal" that was simply never announced or suggested to players.
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100 Draenei Shaman
9475
This thread is strangely starting to remind me of the people who questioned the value of healing stream totem from classic -> cataclysm.

Grant it, anyone that thinks there isn't value in it is completely totally wrong. It doesn't matter if you're getting 90% oveheal. You are still getting free effective healing for NOTHING.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Hey.

Healing Stream totem came at a cost when Mana Spring was a dps increase for Hunters, Locks and Shadow Priests.
Edited by Slashlove on 4/26/2013 5:53 AM PDT
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