Do we need tanks in dungeons?

90 Draenei Warrior
3125
Correct me if I'm wrong but it's pretty clear that tanks aren't needed in dungeons. I realized this while doing dungeons this evening. Every dungeon had hunters, mages, or death knights pulling and taunting. I asked them to stop but they continued on. I started following the "you pull it you tank it" method which didn't help because there was a healer. A hunter even bragged saying he didn't need any of us and could solo the dungeon. My question is, what's the point of having dungeon roles when things like this can occur? I could understand if it were one or two dungeons every now and again with people who behave like this but it's not. It happens all the time. I rolled a tank because that's what I want to do...tank! I don't want to sit back and let the rest of the group pull or do nothing. I actually want to do my job. But with the game being setup the way it is there's no need for me to even be there. I saw another thread where someone was addressing the same problem. They suggested that the game should be setup to where if someone pulls and they're not a tank they should get hit harder than what they can handle. I think that's a reasonable suggestion and would help to keep tanks in dungeons. The way it's going now Wow should turn to Guild Wars 2 method and take away all roles because obviously roles are irrelevant. I also read some where that tanks are few and far between. I now see why.
Edited by Keíra on 4/23/2013 2:36 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
16310
Things hit harder once you reach higher levels and you need tanks then. Even in comparatively easy MoP heroics - although some dps classes could tank them if they know what they are doing and have decent gear (but for the most part its much easier if you have a proper tank).
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90 Tauren Druid
15560
I feel bad for lower level groups normally, when playing my DK through the 70 dungeons they don't do enough damage to even pull threat if they try due to vengeance.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10690
Man I tank 5mans and more often than not I feel like an ineffective dps because they're pulling for me, taking zip for damage and I'm flailing around doing nothing. Blizzard needs to get their crap together and make tanks TANK again.
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90 Human Death Knight
10355
I will be very surprised if one day we don't see a world of Warcraft without tanks. Maybe not by 6.0 but I'm betting by 7.0
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90 Human Priest
18395
Tanks do fill their need. They can do very high damage (vengeance yay) and take almost no damage. The problem is that the majority of tank players are indeed, mouthbreathers and not only fail to hold aggro, but also fail to do the high damage capability that tanks now have. And to make matters worse, most tanks pull slow (1 pull at a time), while the whole group is 500+ ilvl and could handle 3-4 pulls at once with no difficulty.

The difference between a good tank and a bad tank is phenomenal. The problem isn't the dps, it's you. Learn how to take initiative if your group is geared by pulling fast, doing high damage which will in turn help you hold aggro better, and complete dungeons faster. This is coming from someone with a 490ish tank who can pull 3-4 pulls at once and manage to do top damage almost all the time.

my ¢2
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90 Human Paladin
10335
You will always need a tank for challenge modes that's for sure....
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90 Human Warrior
11590
As a tank if you are geared up and notice the dps doing good dmg, and have a decent healer PULL THAT !@#$! Hell in 5 man heroics I will often do a /sit when I get a couple mobs on me to ensure that my Veng stacks up high and then just have fun compeeting with the dps! Use Cd's both off and deff and have fun :)

If others are pulling faster than you and not dieing then it's not really a dps prob...if they can live you should have no problems so get out there and pull faster / more!
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60 Blood Elf Death Knight
12170
04/23/2013 07:58 AMPosted by Palinck
The difference between a good tank and a bad tank is phenomenal. The problem isn't the dps, it's you. Learn how to take initiative if your group is geared by pulling fast, doing high damage which will in turn help you hold aggro better, and complete dungeons faster.


There is one flaw with this theory...

I'm just learning how to tank. I have a level 90 DK but I rolled this one so I could learn tanking from the ground up so to speak, with a friend who is queuing with me as healer and giving me some tanking tips (he's also a raid DK tank.)

When the group lets me be the tank, everything is fine. No one dies and I learn a little bit more each run so I can keep getting experience and improving.

When the group runs ahead and pulls everything for me, sure maybe they don't "need" me but I'm not getting the experience I need to progress and improve as a tank.

I'm betting these are the same people who whine and cry about "noob tanks" in LFR. You want good tanks? Then treat low level dungeons for what the should be - a chance to learn and get experience for every role.
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90 Pandaren Priest
15435
Learning by doing easy things is a lot less effective than trial by fire.

If groups are pulling for you, they could be idiots, you can either take the challenge and save them, or let them die, your choice. But they could also be so well-geared that they are vaporizing mobs and standing around waiting for you to get in gear and pull more significant amounts.

Tanking dungeons that everyone finds easy is a tradeoff. You don't want to pull so many mobs that you get instakilled, but you also need to have plenty of them smashing your face or you won't have enough vengeance to hold them all.
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90 Human Warrior
11590
[quote="87031773556"]When the group lets me be the tank, everything is fine. No one dies and I learn a little bit more each run so I can keep getting experience and improving.


This is the negative part of LFG! Who are you to them? Will you be on to get them a fast tank que later? do they knwo you? are you a guildie? will they probbaly never run with you again?

Thus why would they care if you are not getting the experience? To them you clicked the tank role when queing up so you should know how to tank and if you can't they just steem roll ahead.

In the past this would have been squahsed by not getting invited to groups as you only had your realm but due to LFG they just don't care! If you want to learn that way que up with a full group that will be patient and care or pray you find some in LFG!To be honest this is the best exp you can get as a tank... a gorup will expect you to know what to do even if they don't, they will expect you to lead, they will expect you to push the pace... it's part of being a tank and you are Learning ...just not what you want to learn!
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90 Draenei Hunter
14800
Tanks are needed just not always at lower level. The game is not really focused on lower lvls as much as it is max lvl.

Yes it makes it harder to learn to tank correctly at lower lvls, but it is the same for dps & healers. Things die so quickly u really don't need to use rotations correctly either half the time lol

Just go with it really. Most times ppl pull because the tank is going too slowly. As long as the healer can keep up chain pull that. Keep an eye on the healers mana but u can pull the next group before the one u r on is even dead really. The faster the better. And it is good practice for you to be able to learn how to judge your healer & group on how fast u can go. because even at lvl 90 it is still annoying when your tank goes too slow lol

Practice using whatever cooldowns u have & taunting runaway adds. that will be good practice always.

I would not throw a tantrum though and cross your arms/stomping your feet and telling them if they pull they can tank and just sit there. It solves nothing and only makes u look foolish and silly. Just do the run.
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90 Draenei Warrior
3125
For those of you who are going through the same thing and understand where I'm coming from...thanks. It's nice to see I'm not alone. Btw, I no longer run dungeons as a tank. That !@#$ got real old real quick.
Edited by Keíra on 5/8/2013 5:31 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Warrior
3125
[quote="87031773556"]
I'm betting these are the same people who whine and cry about "noob tanks" in LFR. You want good tanks? Then treat low level dungeons for what the should be - a chance to learn and get experience for every role.


Although I'm not a noob tank, pull fast, and can hold aggro I do agree with what you're saying. People don't have the chance to learn how to tank if they're not given the chance to learn how to tank.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12800
Low-level dungeons are woefully bad places for learning to tank. As others point out, it has a cascade effect.

The only solution that doesn't involve fiddling with encounter difficulty is to increase threat generation of tank specs below level 80 or so by another 500%, so all but the most dedicated John Wayne DPS will be overpowered.
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90 Human Warrior
16760
No, tanks are not needed in pre-mop dungeons. And the general populace takes this into account and refuses to give low level tanks a chance to do anything.

I currently have a 90 warrior tank, pally tank and bear tank. I'm leveling a monk tank. But I 100% absolutely refuse to que as a tank in lfd while leveling him. Its simply not going to happen. So guess what - when I hit MoP I'll have 0 experience tanking on him when I queue up. And the dps can blame themselves.
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90 Troll Mage
15790
No, tanks are not needed in pre-mop dungeons. And the general populace takes this into account and refuses to give low level tanks a chance to do anything.

I currently have a 90 warrior tank, pally tank and bear tank. I'm leveling a monk tank. But I 100% absolutely refuse to que as a tank in lfd while leveling him. Its simply not going to happen. So guess what - when I hit MoP I'll have 0 experience tanking on him when I queue up. And the dps can blame themselves.


No the blame is yours. No one made you do anything, you chose those actions out of free will.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11190
I tank 5 man heroics on my priest usually. The mobs just do no hit hard enough to scare me like they should. I guess the "cata heroics are too hard" QQ from last expansion really worked.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5485
Leveling dungeons are horrendously undertuned. They seriously need to either revisit the mob stats, or lower the min and max levels to enter every dungeon by at least 2-3 levels. And probably nerf the stat scaling on heirlooms -- the experience bonus is fine, but they also have epic level stats at levels where you can hardly even find any epics and certainly aren't expected to have them in multiple slots.

On the other hand, having 0 experience as a tank when you get to MoP heroics probably isn't going to hurt you that much anyway, since they're not tuned all that tight either. Look through your spellbook to see which abilities make you harder to kill (either directly, or by proccing some passive ability). Use them a lot. If it's something where 100% uptime is possible (stances or maintenance buffs), do it, otherwise use it on CD or as fast as you can get the resources. If you have attacks that *give* you resources, use them on CD or as close as you can. Any ability that doesn't make you harder to kill should only be used to round up mobs, or if it doesn't compete for resources with actual tanking abilities, as filler.

Anything more detailed than that can wait until you're ready for LFR or raiding, at which point you're probably going to look at forum stickies or 3rd party websites anyway.

I do tank some dungeons on my DK and monk alts. Some DPS are colossal jerks, but on the other hand, I often get at least one whisper saying "don't listen to that guy", often from the healer.
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90 Worgen Warlock
13450
In 90 heroics, if your healer is good and your dps are good also, you don't need a tank at all anymore.

Hell, I did a heroic on my resto druid where the tank asked me to go DPS so it'd go faster, and it did and there wasn't a death. Might not even need a healer anymore with all the hybrid stuff that's out there.
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