Raid Boss Frontal Parry

92 Draenei Shaman
4440
My main is a DK, FYI.

It's frustrating when that happens, and it is anti-melee bias. I just don't agree that it's a big deal, except for feral and subtlety.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
10840
to be fair ranged need to deal with this as well, mainly from the huge hit requirements. i think hit/expertise in general are a bit archaic, casters need a ton of hit, and melee need a lot of hit/expertise.

they are necessary stats, but noone really looks forward to hit/exp capping, they are just a requirement. even in the current tier I cant really use the ji'kun dps trinket yet, cause it puts me over the hit cap by a mile.

with the vengeance changes threat is usually a non issue even at low levels of hit/expertise. maybe they should rework it in the next xpac so people are free to focus on primarily haste/crit/mastery/dodge/parry mainly.


Ranged don't have to deal with this at all. Our equivalent to your double hit cap is our dodge expertise. This would be like some fights, casters have to stack almost 50% more hit, or still be able to miss with 7.5% frequency.
Edited by Sajepanda on 4/24/2013 7:34 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Rogue
15585
happened many times when crucial special attacks at just that moment would get parried


exactly right, I as a rogue maintain my cooldowns near perfectly to be able to gain more dps out of it, a sinister strike parry causes slower insight (damage increase), parry on evis causes cooldowns being 1-2 seconds slower and even during Adrenaline Rush to over combo because of my 0.3 GCD which leads to either less finishers or rotation breaks.

Glancing Blows suck, parry really ruins a melee's day.

to be fair ranged need to deal with this as well, mainly from the huge hit requirements


Ranged get the same amount of rating in hit as melee does with expertise + hit.

They are both 15%, ranged 15%, melee 7.5%+7.5%.
Edited by Starbûck on 4/24/2013 8:24 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15120
04/24/2013 06:13 AMPosted by Verdash
Range have other hindrances that you are glossing over,


like?

i can count on one hand all the fights that have been ranged unfriendly.
Reply Quote
10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
if a melee dps gets to 7.5% expertise, just remove the chance to be dodged/parried.

thats reasonable, isnt it? would also make things easier on tanks who need even more than dps do.
Edited by Sanctifìed on 4/24/2013 9:04 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
13880
The inevitable boss every expansion who can't be attacked from the rear, on the other hand, murders subtlety and (in particular) feral.


Just to clarify, feral does not get murdered from these frontal attack bosses, and probably is one of the better equipped to handle them. Replacing Shred with Mangle actually seems to be a dps increase on almost every fight. While I would love to see frontal Parry for melee dps removed it's not that bad for everyone.
Reply Quote
92 Draenei Shaman
4440
My main isn't a feral, hasn't been since TBC, so please excuse me if this is a stupid question, but how could mangle possibly outdamage shred when it deals less damage per energy? Is there some fine point I'm missing?
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
11815
It is that bad. A 20 second cd debuff applier like colossus smash in which you usually only get maybe 18 of and having 2 or 3 of them parry in inopportune moments is just unacceptable if you actually care about doing your best.

It comes down to this in my opinion: If you are playing at near maximum output of your class, (no rotational errors, being behind the boss the best you can, etc) and parries/dodges still get in there and ruin the next 20 seconds of your dps; this is the no good.

There should be a reward for good play/proper gearing, and not still get slammed with RNG related anger-inducing mechanics. If you are hit/expertise capped, Special attacks should no longer be dodgeable/parriable, and the dps will still separate those who play poorly by sitting in front and having their white attacks parried/dodged and those who play well and have nearly 0 dodge/parries on their white attacks.
Reply Quote
92 Draenei Shaman
4440
That would be unfair to specs that rely more on white attacks (combat, enhance). It's not trivial to think of a scenario that's fair to everybody.

If I was in the designer's seat, I would remove glancing blows and change parried attacks to deal 25% damage. That would neatly solve the problem.

With my fix you wouldn't want to be in front of the boss because it would murder your performance, but you'd still connect with your attacks and generate resources (holy power, combo points, chi) and special buffs/debuffs (plague strike, stormstrike, colossus strike) as normal.

It also gives parry a reason to exist. Right now it works like "dodge 2".
Edited by Slant on 4/25/2013 10:12 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
11815
Another solution would to allow special attack effects go on regardless of it parrying. For example if I parried my colossus smash, the colossus smash debuff would still go up and not ruin my dps, bthirst can still function as a rage generator without landing the actual hit. I believe the depression lies solely with rotation breaking parries/dodges because it is a slap in the face when you are trying to enjoy playing.

White attack dodges/parries generally speaking go unnoticed regardless of being a white attack heavy class such as a rogue. I believe a rogue would be much more upset if he parried an eviscerate and ruining his rotation by making him cast it again.
Reply Quote
92 Draenei Shaman
4440
Nah, 80% energy is refunded when rogue attacks don't hit. Worst case scenario, all they lose is a GCD, and all three rogue specs have tons of free GCDs, outside of bloodlust and combat during adrenaline rush.

Your solution would work too. I like mine more, though, since it fixes parry being functionally identical to dodge.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
11815
Nah, 80% energy is refunded when rogue attacks don't hit. Worst case scenario, all they lose is a GCD, and all three rogue specs have tons of free GCDs, outside of bloodlust and combat during adrenaline rush.

Your solution would work too. I like mine more, though, since it fixes parry being functionally identical to dodge.


I personally still think its more physically frustrating to have your rotation tampered with, it's no fun, I can't believe anyone can say with a straight face, "i parried my colossus smash" no big deal or whatever. If that's your mentality then this thread isn't for you.

Repeating any spells because of random boss mitigation is clunky and doesn't reward those trying to perfect their rotation. It's not anyone's best interest for fun gameplay.
Edited by Greatemperor on 4/25/2013 11:44 AM PDT
Reply Quote
92 Draenei Shaman
4440
If you're only looking for responses from people that agree with you, you might want to try emailing yourself rather than posting in public forums.

That said, I didn't say it was fun, or fair to melee, or wasn't frustrating. I said it wasn't a big deal, because it doesn't substantially hurt your overall performance.
Edited by Slant on 4/25/2013 12:17 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
4125
I said it wasn't a big deal, because it doesn't substantially hurt your overall performance.


What he's saying though is that a parried Colossus Smash does affect his overall performance. Fury has to dump its rage into the 6 second window. If it's not up, it throws everything off. CS crits also cause Enrage. No CS means no CS crit, which means no 10% damage boost and no Raging Blow. Another huge loss to Fury dps.

You're basically arguing for the sake of arguing.
Edited by Ludicrous on 4/25/2013 12:33 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
12225
It's frustrating when that happens, and it is anti-melee bias. I just don't agree that it's a big deal, except for feral and subtlety.


I play feral and still don't think its a big deal. Yes, overall such fights hurt my DPS, but it is hardly "depressing", nor does it "ruin" my DPS or the fight for me. If it did, I'd probably roll a caster - oh wait, I have a Shaman and a mage for heals and DPS. Why don't I go on them? Well, because they have their issues too and, in spite of everything, I would still rather play a druid. Suck it up boys, a few misses isn't the difference between a fun fight and a bad one...

TL;DR: Get over the "This is how I play, make it win." attitude. Like life, every class has issues.
Edited by Amoque on 4/25/2013 12:40 PM PDT
Reply Quote
92 Draenei Shaman
4440
Heh, obviously we've got two extreme viewpoints here.

On one side, the OP is upset when the boss flips around for 5% of the fight and he has a 7.5% chance to get a Colossus Smash parried.

In the opposite corner, a feral druid doesn't mind losing 20% of his main combo builder's damage.

Now.... FIGHT!
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
12225
I didn't say I didn't mind, what I said - meant - is that I do my best under whatever conditions exist and don't get bent because not every (ok, any) fight favors melee. Surely you noticed before now that melee has a harder time more often than casters? Get over it, do your best, and play the class you enjoy or roll another.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
11815
04/25/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Ludicrous
I said it wasn't a big deal, because it doesn't substantially hurt your overall performance.


What he's saying though is that a parried Colossus Smash does affect his overall performance. Fury has to dump its rage into the 6 second window. If it's not up, it throws everything off. CS crits also cause Enrage. No CS means no CS crit, which means no 10% damage boost and no Raging Blow. Another huge loss to Fury dps.

You're basically arguing for the sake of arguing.


Exactly, and it hurts enhance shamans as well. 15% crit to all lightning bolts for the next 8 seconds from stormstrike debuff being lost is nothing to scoff at. It hurts plenty and it hurts more for those who are trying to excel and perform their best.
Reply Quote
92 Draenei Shaman
4440
I didn't say I didn't mind, what I said - meant - is that I do my best under whatever conditions exist and don't get bent because not every (ok, any) fight favors melee. Surely you noticed before now that melee has a harder time more often than casters? Get over it, do your best, and play the class you enjoy or roll another.

You did say you don't mind, but I accept that isn't what you meant.

Most raid encounters are melee unfriendly, and everybody knows it. We have no real choice beyond accepting it or not playing, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't provide feedback.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
11815
I didn't say I didn't mind, what I said - meant - is that I do my best under whatever conditions exist and don't get bent because not every (ok, any) fight favors melee. Surely you noticed before now that melee has a harder time more often than casters? Get over it, do your best, and play the class you enjoy or roll another.


This isn't a game where life's !@#$ty circumstances apply. Is that your response to everything that could be improved on in this game, "suck it up, whatever". Your a sheep and will take anything given to you.

I started this thread to get ideas and for people to state when this type of circumstance affects their class in detail. All I get is people who are too apathetic about their dps output.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]