RPPM Trinkets, Issues in Raiding Environment

90 Worgen Rogue
10920
This post pertains to the issues of the new RPPM trinkets and their effects in the raiding environment, again this pertains to PvE gameplay not PvP.

First, let me begin by saying I am not a fan of the new RPPM trinkets... As I see it there are two major issues introduced by the RPPM trinkets.

1. I heard you like RNG...

I don't quit understand why the ICD method of trinkets was abandoned and replaced by RPPM system. I think I remember reading a post, saying something to the tune of the developers thought ICD trinkets were bland. They did not like how predictable the trinkets were, and so came about the RPPM trinkets.

Unfortunately they seemed to have solved the non-existant issue of "Boring" trinkets and thrown in an actual issue, RNG for the sake of RNG.

From my understanding the trinkets are assigned a PPM or an average number of procs expected per minute. However, the trinkets do not have an ICD, and can therefore proc multiple times back to back. Because of that the chance of procing is kept low, unlike the ICD trinkets which would proc shortly after the cooldown fell.

But from experience the RPPM trinkets introduce a new level of RNG into PvE that is unnecessary, and undesired. Although the average PPM might be reasonable for the trinket, depending on your haste (I will talk about this later) the variance in that proc rate is quite high. Although they have attempted to correct for the bad luck effect, the performance difference of these trinkets from one attempt to another is quite large.

In all my years of raiding experience I have never seen my dps swing so radically from one attempt to another on a progression night as I have with these new trinkets. From a progression raiding perspective this is extremely undesirable. If we are attempting to implement a strategy which requires a certain level of dps, seeing one's dps swing from one attempt to another is extremely frustrating. On farm content, I can see the RPPM trinkets being fun and rolling the dice with your dps, possibly getting some outrageous parses. On progression, I would much rather have my dps be stable from one attempt to another.

2. Haste, Haste, Haste, would you like some more Haste?

The second issue with RPPM trinkets, and possibly the most significant. In order to get the most out of the trinkets, one would need to reforge and possibly gem into haste. For example, once an Assassination Rogue gets two of these trinkets they will most likely see a dps increase by switching from stacking mastery to stacking haste. This is most definitely true once they attain the new Meta gem.

A person using these trinkets without a decent amount of haste will most likely have a very frustrating experience. The more events happening to possibly trigger the proc of the trinket per time interval, the less the variance in the trinket proc rate.

If this is the future of trinket design, it is quite bleak for stat diversity if most people are attempting to stack as much haste as they can.

TLDR Version

The new RPPM trinkets introduce a new layer of unnecessary RNG into the raiding environment, this is especially frustrating when seeing large fluctuations in DPS from one attempt to another during progression.

The current implementation of the RPPM trinkets favors specs which stack haste, and inflates the value of haste. This leads to less stat diversity if an increasing number of specs switch to stacking haste just due to these trinkets.

3rd Issue, a Personal One

Make the trinkets 100% chance to proc after say 2 min OOC... Its extremely frustrating not getting a proc going into combat with all my CDs popped, my pre-pot, and possibly heroism depending on the fight.
Edited by Skarzog on 4/24/2013 11:36 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16825
Have to agree. The random factor on them is absolutely ridiculous, resulting in some pretty decent sized variance in DPS between attempts for the exact same thought and effort. Some fights I'll only see a 10% uptime on Renataki's while other attempts I get upwards of 50%. Even my 2 and 4pc use the RPPM system....

After I get the legendary meta and Bad Juju, my DPS will be swinging around like a Cataclysm Frost DK.
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They already fixed this.. There are no longer very long streaks of bad RNG. The trinkets gain a chance to proc based on how long your last proc was while still maintaining their average proc rate. There are no huge swings in dps from encounter to encounter.

As for haste gearing, i completely agree. Gearing is less diverse and haste becomes the clear winner after you equip 522+ RPPM trinkets, for every rogue spec. This would be fine if there were other trinkets that didn't use the RPPM mechanic, but there are no gearing options.
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90 Worgen Druid
15775
I think that Spark of Zandalar and Capacitive Primal Diamond are good designs for RPPM effects. To be clear, I'm referring to the design where a major effect triggers after a particular number of frequent procs. I will call this a "stacking proc" design. The alternative -- which is the design of most of the RPPM trinkets -- is to have a major effect trigger directly with a very small proc rate (e.g.Bad Juju or Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen).

Simply put, this "stacking proc" design is a lot less random -- and one can quantify exactly how much less random it is, for it follows directly from the central limit theorem in probability theory. For each individual proc, the interval between procs is distributed exponentially, with standard deviation equal to the mean of the distribution (which is to say, the proc interval varies a lot). But suppose we design our trinket to trigger its effect after some large number n of procs, rather than just one. We are now concerned with the total interval between all n procs, since that would be the interval with which the proc's effect is triggered. According to the central limit theorem, for large enough n, this total interval approaches a normal distribution, and its standard deviation will be equal to its mean value divided by sqrt(n). That is, the larger we make n, the less random the proc becomes.

There are other advantages to this design as well. Mainly, it provides more feedback to the player -- and this can even be considered an advantage over the old ICD design (since you needed addons to track that). Being able to watch the stacks progress both reassures the player that something is happening -- thereby averting the frustration of not seeing a trinket proc in a long time -- and provides some warning to the player as to when the trinket's effect will next trigger.

I will say that Blizzard's bad luck streak prevention scheme sort of accomplished these goals, but with far less transparency and far less effect. Under their scheme, the standard deviation of the proc interval distribution is about 4/5 the mean of the distribution (whereas without the scheme, it would be equal to the mean). Their scheme is opaque to the default UI, but you can (and I did) write addons to display the expected time before the next proc -- and that way, you can at least see that something is happening and sort of anticipate when the next proc is likely to happen.
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90 Troll Druid
17085
I generally prefer stacking proc trinkets when the trinket itself is very powerful, I almost wish that Unerring Vision worked that way...stacked to a level and then grants 100% crit.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12930
04/25/2013 06:51 AMPosted by Weavr
They already fixed this.. There are no longer very long streaks of bad RNG. The trinkets gain a chance to proc based on how long your last proc was while still maintaining their average proc rate. There are no huge swings in dps from encounter to encounter.


While they do gain an increased chance the fact remains that there are still huge gaps of bad RNG. On our Horridon kill last night Renataki popped 3 times, once on first, second, and third doors. Then the rest of the fight I went without one. Which is really detrimental to dps especially on the burn phase.
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90 Orc Hunter
16800
My biggest issue is actually with Bad Juju. I don't mind the other ones, but they haven't dropped yet. As far as the Agi trinkets go, according to GC's post before 5.2, the only ToT trinkets that don't have an ICD are Juju and Talisman of Bloodlust.

The talisman makes sense, since it's a stacking buff anyway, but with Juju not having an ICD I sometimes go a couple of minutes between procs, and sometimes I get procs 2 seconds apart, effectively wasting 18 seconds of the buff (I do get a small gnome army though...).
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90 Pandaren Monk
8880
Maybe it's all the haste but I'm having a pretty good time with Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun. Of every fight I've checked the uptime it's been 45-50%.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
You know something is a little off when a class will pull a complete 180 on their stat preferences based on if they have RPPM trinkets or not, purely for the sake of making those trinkets better.

Haste is going to become *everybody's* best stat at this rate.
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80 Troll Druid
5670
I'm curious to see how this plays out. If haste becomes the default thing to reforge/gem for everyone in the future. Getting haste to X, hit/exp cap to X, then throw the rest at your garbage stat, oh boy what fun.
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90 Worgen Rogue
10920
I think the bad luck protection was a step into the right direction for these trinkets. However, there is still a great deal of variance in the proc's of these trinkets. Stenhaldi probably highlighted the issue best, he has a greater knowledge of probability and statistics than I do. And I do agree the greatest culprits are the large effect trinkets with low proc rates, such as Bad Juju.

For example on a Durumu kill I had Bad Juju not proc for the first 50% of the fight. Now this is an extreme case, but certainly not completely uncommon with these new trinkets.

You know something is a little off when a class will pull a complete 180 on their stat preferences based on if they have RPPM trinkets or not, purely for the sake of making those trinkets better.

Haste is going to become *everybody's* best stat at this rate.


While the effect of the RNG factor of these trinkets in a raid environment is debatable, I think the greatest issue is just this. There is no question that the current implementation of these trinkets favors specs which stack haste. And in some cases such as my own spec, our gearing changes to accommodate these trinkets.

If these trinkets move forward the way they work, stat diversity will become sparse. And those who are not able to work in haste into their itemization will be penalized for using RPPM trinkets.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
11430
I agree its frustrating the rng on top of rng factor, and to add to that, haste is not a go to stat for hunters
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90 Worgen Warlock
18570
RPPM stuff being totally random was bad. They fixed that with RNG bad streak protection. Its not as tighly regimented as a ICD/high proc trinket but those were nearly becoming clockwork. I didn't mind that model personally but RPPM isn't that bad.

They could probably tune the RPPM bad streak protection closer to the ICD model but the balanced middle ground is probably somewhere between live and ICD trinkets of past.

Scaling them with haste is a wonky thing...no haste scaling might be okay if you had a shorter or faster ramp up on the bad streak protection algorythm. That or make each trinket scale with one specific stat or at least crit vs haste. I think that might be a better solution than a universal haste gain on every trinket.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
10525
yeah this RPPM system is terrible. just look at world of logs, or world of "i got lucky procs". the system itself already had to be fixed for "bad luck" streaks, which tells you off the bat its not functioning correctly.

i also read up on the moment you get enough RPPM items haste is equal to your best secondary stat if not better. wtf really? now i should be stacking haste as an assassin rogue?

the dps differences between progression attempts, and even farm kills is boggling. i try my best to better myself each encounter, but from what ive seen, my damage fluctuates so much that regardless if i play perfect or mediocre, my dps in the end is dependent on an assload of RNG now. one attempt ill be at 140k, the next ill be at 80k, really? what the !@#$? so why should i even attempt try to play perfectly anymore if mediocre gives the same results if not better sometimes?

the system itself discourages skill based game play and leaves it up to RNG, which as everyone can see, is really disappointing.
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90 Worgen Druid
15775
A quick note on the last point-
3rd Issue, a Personal One

Make the trinkets 100% chance to proc after say 2 min OOC... Its extremely frustrating not getting a proc going into combat with all my CDs popped, my pre-pot, and possibly heroism depending on the fight.

Changing zones (or logging in) resets the "bad luck streak prevention" timer, so you can raise the chance that your trinkets proc on the next pull by not releasing after a raid wipe. Kind of an annoying feature.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
I just kind of wish there was at least an option this tier to opt out of random to a degree. Why are there 5 strength trinkets that are all RNG proc based? They couldn't have made 1 or 2 of them on use?
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90 Draenei Mage
17090
I don't like that they go even further in removing skill from DPSing, there's been enough of that over the course of the last two expansions IMO.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11975
The big thing about RPPM is with the proc trinkets you could track their timers to min/max them, which was fun and rewarded good play. Common example was when I played arcane I would sometimes wait a few seconds before my burn phase for an ICD to come off cooldown so the trinket proc would align with the burn phase for maximum damage.

With RPPM you can no longer do that, you are just left to hope you get the proc during your burn, since it doesn't make sense to delay it for a proc that might take 1 second or 1 minute to happen.

On the topic of RPPM and haste, I don't really understand why they decided the proc rate should scale with haste. That was probably a bad decision. As I understand it one of the main pros of RPPM was that all specs would have equal procs because of the way it modifies proc chance based on time since last chance to proc. That makes sense. But then to go and make it scale with haste, so specs with more haste get more then specs with less haste, that doesn't make sense. It's like on the one hand they tried to make it balanced for different specs and then on the other they said "nah !@#$ it, let's reward specs who stacks haste"
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90 Draenei Priest
4095
04/25/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Skarzog
For example on a Durumu kill I had Bad Juju not proc for the first 50% of the fight. Now this is an extreme case, but certainly not completely uncommon with these new trinkets.


Dude you wouldn't believe how frequently this happens to me with my ppm trinket. Thankfully spriests stack haste regardless of trinkets so I don't have to go too out of my way to accommodate optimal use of these trinkets, but I completely see your point that basically everyone will end up stacking haste or rocking their 5.1/spa trinkets.

I also agree they need to make these trinkets guarantee proc after 2ish minutes ooc. Nothing is more frustrating than having heroism, pre pot, and all your cd's popped to just sit there and stare at your trinket waiting for it to proc, and then have it flip you off for half the fight before procc'ing, and then 3 seconds later procc'ing again taking the duration from 17 seconds back up to 20.

This game already has way too much rng in it (don't even get me started on those secrets of the empire things) and I feel like trinkets with an ICD were a welcome piece of control in an otherwise rng based storm. But I'm sure blizzard and their math formulas know better than me O_o. Also, +1 for Madoran! I miss that place :D
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16825
Yeah it was fun getting 5 Renataki procs in the first 2 minutes of Heroic Jin'rokh then not seeing anymore procs for the next 3 minutes.

It's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the new Blink Strike. Trying to line up Murder of Crows with Renataki's is an absolute RNG nightmare.
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