RPPM Trinkets, Issues in Raiding Environment

100 Troll Hunter
7270
I like how the developers stance has been that they don't want to make things too "mathy" yet they implement a system that results in research and debates that rivals what we saw with Dual Wield/Windfury.

RPPM is an interesting mechanic for high frequency procs; the "melee" meta being a good example. It falls apart when you lower the frequency too far. The implementation of the bad luck streak system just shows how much of an utter failure it is. 5 minute fights simply aren't long enough for an item designed to proc once every two minutes to pass a point of statistical significance.
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90 Orc Warrior
15070
I personally really dislike RPPM so far. It seems like a good system, but as a class that hates haste, I get the short end of the stick. RPPM trinkets proc substantially less for me than for, say, a DK or a monk.
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100 Troll Druid
18715
I honestly wouldn't mind it so much if haste didn't affect the RPPM value. It simply makes haste too valuable with stronger RPPM procs - especially on specs that already favor haste over crit or mastery.

All in all it's arguably more mathy than Armor Pen ever was (or actually could be, since it was a single stat that affected direct damage only AND had a functional cap at 100%). Meaning that, with haste already affecting either your cast speed and dot/hot ticks, or your white swings and resource gen, adding trinket procs to that is just nuts, and really rather unbalanced.

To illustrate it, remember how mathy armor pen was:
for X rating you have Y% armor reduction against your enemies using direct damage physical attacks.
That's actually pretty simple, right?

Now look at what haste does now:
For X rating your cast speed is Y% faster and your dot/hot ticks are Z% faster.
or
For X rating your white attack speed is Y% faster, and your resources regenerate Z% faster (except warriors? sort of? not?)
with both: your RPPM trinket procs are also Q% more likely to happen.

It creates a situation almost exactly like armor pen was, just with more variable 'caps' on what would be a maximum saturation rate from a given proc. Which is to say, armor pen got better the more of it you had up to it's effective cap of 100% ignored armor. Haste now gets better the more of it you have, but it's effective cap depends on the RPPM value of your trinkets. An RPPM trinket with a frequency value of 1 needs more haste to cap it's proc than an RPPM trinket with a frequency value of 2. This just lends RPPM and Haste to be even more mathy than Armor Pen could ever have been.

Of course you could say that "Well I don't NEED Rune of Reorigination to proc 100% on each ability used" - right, you don't, you just need it to proc once every 10 seconds to reach maximum saturation of it's proc. This detail means a trinket-buff-duration with 10 seconds needs more haste to reach the saturation point than one with a 20 second duration. Is it too mathy yet? Nope!

There's the bad streak protection, which is nice, but the proc rates are generally already terrible enough on a class that doesn't favor haste that it hardly feels like it works, it's pretty easy to go one attempt to the next without a proc for minutes at a time, and the next have it proc back to back. Maybe we should add class/spec specific bad streak protection values to the whole thing too... maybe that's their next move to try and fix it.

Am I getting ahead of myself with how mathy this whole thing was? Maybe, but it really proves the point. The current system with RPPM is (truly!) too mathy. At least an obsolete stat deemed too mathy was straight-forward to understand, had a straight-forward cap, and affected, straight-forwardly, direct damage physical attacks. The only thing mysterious about it was whether or not a target had a significant amount of armor to reduce.
RPPM is just the opposite, with different frequency values depending on the trinket/item/enchant, sometimes different specs having different frequency values, bad streak protection that hardly feels like it works in the worst of your bad streaks, and different haste caps dependent on the frequencies and duration as applicable. There's a lot mysterious about RPPM, and the only thing not mysterious is the effect of the proc, whenever it happens (and even that is subject to debate, see also: Rune of Reorigination).

tl;dr version
RPPM favors haste stacking specs/classes too much over non-haste favored specs/classes.
If they thought armor pen was too mathy and removed it, I can't reasonably justify RPPM staying in the game beyond MoP without another overhaul.
Edited by Adramelk on 5/1/2013 10:36 AM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
18715
Forgot to mention, in that wall of text, that the haste required to actually cap an RPPM item with a single-digit base proc rate is ... pretty well unattainably high by normal means, but the potential to get haste to such a point to effectively break the system is feasible through certain procs ;;

(eg: a haste-favored agility spec reforging/gemming/enchanting properly for rune of reorigination AND with talisman of bloodlust could pretty easily break 30k Haste -- I know with my current gear, reforging, gemming, and enchants, my mastery skyrockets to just above 31k with the RoRO proc -- I can only imagine what it'd be if my other trinket procced a secondary stat instead of agility).
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100 Worgen Druid
16845
I wouldn't consider haste capping a concern here. You're not going to haste cap any of the current trinkets ever. To cap a 549 Rune of Re-Origination you would need 388% haste -- and that's the easiest trinket to cap. Every other trinket would require more than that.
Edited by Stenhaldi on 5/1/2013 12:28 PM PDT
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100 Troll Druid
18715
I know. I was mostly just driving the point that they got rid of armor pen because it was too mathy, but this RPPM stuff and it's interaction with haste is more so.

And also, the melee legendary meta gem would be (lots) easier than Rune to cap it, though it would vary by spec/class.
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100 Worgen Druid
16845
You're not going to be haste capping the legendary meta, since it doesn't have an ICD. Adding haste reduces the minimum attack interval to hit 100% proc chance, but also reduces your actual attack interval proportionally. Certain specs might still see a reduction in the effect of haste if they have a long swing timer and their special attack frequency doesn't scale (or scales poorly) with haste, but there will never be anything close to a plateau.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
Its interaction with Haste isn't anything overly severe due to how much is required to have any true significant impact. It just skews the stat values for specs that have Haste as close to another stat (Hunters with all 3 secondary stats being close, Assassin Rogues with Haste and Mastery close.)

They're just a nightmare to line up correctly due to sheer randomness. At least with the ICD trinkets, you could essentially plan and track a trigger so you could use major cooldowns for the effect like my Hunter using Murder of Crows. RPPM however makes it so unreliable that it's hard to plan the two to line up. I can usually do it once on the pull. And that's if the start of the fight even encourages cooldowns at the start, for example, not Jin'rokh or Ji'kun.

From there I'm playing a game and have to decide to try to hold my Crows for a proc and hope for the large DPS gain that may not come or use them on cooldown. It's not a fun system overall.

They said they wanted to raise the skill factor with trinket interactions but the old system arguably had more of a skill factor since you had to actually plan cooldown cycles and such around upcoming trinket procs for a noticable gain. Now, you're playing a slot machine with your DPS numbers as the RPPM trinket model has a noticable impact on total DPS and a pretty substantial swing in numbers if you manage to get RPPM procs when you need them and if you get them at "bad" points such as having Renataki's proccing 20 seconds before Berserk, Crows, etc and thus running off as your cooldown becomes available. At least with the old ICD model, you could plan for said interactions and make more judgement calls to save or hold effects.
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90 Tauren Druid
13005
The true issue is...................

Trinkets should have always worked this way, its just for a long time now we've been spoiled and known when they were going to proc pretty much down to a 4-5 second window.

I personally like it in the long run of things, it increases the SD from fight to fight and makes the good dps who react well to procs more apparent over the bad ones.
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100 Night Elf Warrior
17780
The true issue is...................

Trinkets should have always worked this way, its just for a long time now we've been spoiled and known when they were going to proc pretty much down to a 4-5 second window.

I personally like it in the long run of things, it increases the SD from fight to fight and makes the good dps who react well to procs more apparent over the bad ones.


I agree with this overall. The previous model were essentially on use trinkets. There probably should have been more of those this tier though, for people that really feel the need to know exactly when the trinkets go off. They could provide slightly fewer stats overall to account for the fact that they will always go off at the "right" time.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
12060
The true issue is...................

Trinkets should have always worked this way, its just for a long time now we've been spoiled and known when they were going to proc pretty much down to a 4-5 second window.

I personally like it in the long run of things, it increases the SD from fight to fight and makes the good dps who react well to procs more apparent over the bad ones.


The new trinkets do not raise the skill cap, a good player before the trinkets will remain a good player, and a bad one will remain a bad one. The only difference now is that our performance from one attempt to another or from kill to another is based on how lucky someone gets on trinket procs. This is especially true with these large gain low chance trinkets such as Bad Juju which gives a whopping 8000 Agi for 20 seconds.

And the biggest issue is not the RNG factor, it is the haste issue. Without a doubt the new trinkets favor haste stacking specs. If they have given up on stat diversity and are fine with haste becoming the most desired stat for almost all specs, then I guess there is no issue.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14580
Spark of the Zandalar is pretty random feeling. Also in spite of claims about "reacting when the trinket procs" in reality I would lose far more damage delaying the 10-20 seconds needed to proc my 10 stack before popping cooldowns. It isn't worth it. That isn't true of all the trinkets, but certainly of the Spark.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17255
They already fixed this.. There are no longer very long streaks of bad RNG. The trinkets gain a chance to proc based on how long your last proc was while still maintaining their average proc rate. There are no huge swings in dps from encounter to encounter.

As for haste gearing, i completely agree. Gearing is less diverse and haste becomes the clear winner after you equip 522+ RPPM trinkets, for every rogue spec. This would be fine if there were other trinkets that didn't use the RPPM mechanic, but there are no gearing options.


That's my biggest complaint. It marries you to Haste.It also means you can't truly balance these trinkets.

Bad JuJu is terrible for Rogues that don't stack Haste. But pair it with Talisman of Bloodlust http://www.wowhead.com/item=96864 and it is OP.

I wish Blizzard would stop balancing around items and specific gear/gemming setups and take a more liberal and varied stance with their game. They did a decent job at the start of MoP by making secondary stats important again and getting them pretty close in value across the board.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13565
I personally like it in the long run of things, it increases the SD from fight to fight and makes the good dps who react well to procs more apparent over the bad ones.


Really? I think it actually makes every DPS spec more brainless to play. Before, there were intricacies with each class with regards to how long you should save CDs to align with trinket procs, holding off certain spells for trinkets procs, etc etc. With the RPPM system optimizing damage is more luck reliant than ever.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
05/03/2013 10:41 AMPosted by Anc
I personally like it in the long run of things, it increases the SD from fight to fight and makes the good dps who react well to procs more apparent over the bad ones.


Really? I think it actually makes every DPS spec more brainless to play. Before, there were intricacies with each class with regards to how long you should save CDs to align with trinket procs, holding off certain spells for trinkets procs, etc etc. With the RPPM system optimizing damage is more luck reliant than ever.


This. As I stated before, I have to use Crows and Stampede during a full Renataki's for maximum effectiveness. This turns most encounters into "how long can I afford to fish for a proc before I'm actually LOSING damage?" due to how completely random. And even then, I've had fights where my trinket procced 5 times in a 2 minute time span then refused to proc at all for the next 3, thus missing a Crows entirely.

It doesn't add skill since I'm doing the same damn thing I did before. It's just now I'm doing it while playing a slot machine with my shot cycle to trigger a proc when I need it and have noticable swings in damage output from attempt to attempt based on when my trinkets trigger in relation to my cooldowns. It's frustrating.
Edited by Bullettime on 5/3/2013 12:12 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Priest
4095
Thanks for all of the well thought out posts! This thread has been good to read. I really wish they would add a few icd trinkets to the mix that way you can either choose to play the trinket lottery for huge stat gains off of procs, or play it safe with an icd counterpart that added a bit less stats, but gives you the certainty of knowing about when it's going to proc.

Thankfully my class stacks haste anyway so I usually have pretty decent luck getting my trinkets to proc. But I can understand, for example, the hunter above me being frustrated because he's not actively stacking haste, and saving big cd's hoping for a lucky proc turns out to be a dps loss in a lot of situations.

The rppm trinkets are a fun change, but they rely too much on haste stacking to be effective for all classes. I feel like adding a few icd counterparts to the mix would provide fun new 5.2 trinkets to all :)
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It's especially bad for WW monks right now. Rune of Reorigination completely changes how we play. It's such a massive dps boost that you can't ignore it, but it completely fouls your dps if the trinket either refuses to proc or your tank decides to pull without a countdown.

That last part was in reference to having to unequip the trinket and re-equip the trinket to reduce the chance it will proc right off the bat with 0 TeB stacks. This wouldn't be a problem with a normal ICD, if it was a 45 sec that gives me ample time after the first proc to build 10, maybe let it go to 15 stack of TeB to effectively use it during the proc.

Some trinkets are great, the stacking effect ones I think exemplify the RPPM system, and make it look really good, the others that have a singular proc that swing someone's dps by 40k+ it can just be devastating. I mean that number literally, one attempt I'll do 90k, one attempt I'll do 130k dps just depending on how the trinket procs, and on a good attempt where the stars align, I can do upwards of 140k

I'm not sure how much other classes swing, but for WW monks it makes it difficult for me in progression fights to make good use fo the trinket.
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