Blood DK issues; or, Look Ma, I Exploded!

100 Dwarf Death Knight
19260
Krinu this is a very well thought out post that explains our mechanics to those that may not understand them. I agree with everything you have posted. /highfive

As far as AMZ goes remember that it scales from strength not attack power so it is much stronger from a dps DK than from a tank one. Perhaps if it was changed to scale from attack power it might actually be worth giving up a personal cooldown to talent for it.

And Arcdeek you're absolutely right about the scaling part. Any time one thing is a flat number and the other is a percentage this will happen. That's why they changed block- in wrath it made you unkillable in heroics but was worthless in raids.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
14815
04/23/2013 12:49 PMPosted by Leeflow
The problem of AMZ is that it only works on instant magic mechanics.


I actually have to disagree here, the root of the problem is that it's a talent. They can't make it truly effective as a raid cooldown without making Lichborne and Purgatory completely worthless by comparison.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
04/23/2013 02:52 PMPosted by Arcdeek
The problem of AMZ is that it only works on instant magic mechanics.


I actually have to disagree here, the root of the problem is that it's a talent. They can't make it truly effective as a raid cooldown without making Lichborne and Purgatory completely worthless by comparison.


WHile I don't diagree about the problems of giving up Purb/lolbourne for AMZ, it would also be nice if it wasn't such a small area.

And technically it's only so good because the devs never get around to fixing it. It's not supposed to absorb a big burst for everyone inside it, that's only because the code isn't fixed (which I assume is the dev way of keeping it from being even worse than it is).
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Yeah, I wrote it on the basis of how it's supposed to work, not how it actually works, sadly.

As for band-aids, making Blood Shield expend 50% of its charge on each incoming physical attack would be the easiest solution on a short term. It's not my idea, though - original credit goes to someone else (name forgotten, sadly), not me.

Long term... I think they need to redesign our mastery.

I went and redesigned ours in my head the other day, starting out with the requirements:
- It needs to include death strike as a major component
- It needs to have a way to mitigate hits proactively
- It needs to include self-healing as a major component

Here's what I came up with.

Mastery: Blood Shield
X% of physical damage taken is instead added to a healing absorption effect on you. You cannot have more healing absorption than you have maximum health.

Death Strike would be changed to include damage put into the healing absorb as well as damage actually taken.

Mastery would increase the amount deferred (the raw percentage) as well as the amount healed by Death Strike.

Yes, it's mechanically similar to stagger. There are only so many ways to make self-healing matter while keeping a class thematically oriented around healing itself.
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100 Human Paladin
14025
04/23/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Boneshatter
As far as AMZ goes remember that it scales from strength not attack power so it is much stronger from a dps DK than from a tank one.


Not *that* much stronger in a raid context, because the scaling is basically irrelevant. Either a tank or a DPS value gives it enough power that it will absorb roughly 75% of the first "tick" of damage for every person standing in it, but not enough absorb to last past that.

And technically it's only so good because the devs never get around to fixing it. It's not supposed to absorb a big burst for everyone inside it, that's only because the code isn't fixed (which I assume is the dev way of keeping it from being even worse than it is).


Sure, but "technically" or not, that's how it functions in-game. I just think it's important to be honest about how good it is - it's definitely weaker than most other raid cooldowns, but it's still significant enough to be worthwhile against magic damage and the 2min cooldown time is a distinct advantage in some situations. It could probably use a flat out redesign so it works like you'd expect it to (reading the description, you certainly come away thinking it's total crap).

To be honest, thinking about it, I'm not even sure what purpose the "cap" serves. In basically any PvE situation it'll absorb 75% of the next attack against everyone in the radius, and then go away. Why not just make it absorb 75% magic damage for 3s and call it a day? That preserves its unique "flavor" (strong against single hits, weaker against AOE ticks), likely buffs it in a number of situations where it's currently a bit weak (basically the more frequently AOE dmg ticks, the weaker it is) and probably won't make it overpowered in any situation where it wasn't already going to be overpowered in its current incarnation.

I agree that the radius is small, and with the radius buffs to Swiftmend/etc incoming it'd be nice to see them buff it up for AMZ too. It requires more precise stacking than basically any other ability in the game.

I'm not convinced that having it as a talent is really all that problematic. Paladins have a tier where they pick between personal survivability (Unbreakable Spirit) and raid utility (Hand of Purity/Clemency) too.

I think the "problem" with that talent tier is that Purgatory shores up an obvious DK weakness (the fact that they tend to be more spikey than other tanks). I'd prefer to just see them address the weakness directly by making DKs slightly less spikey, and leave Purgatory vs. AMZ as one of those interesting choices to make depending on the encounter.

I mean, on paper, Unbreakable Spirit is an amazing personal survivability talent - Divine Protection at 40s instead of 60s is a massive improvement. In practice, it turns out that Hand of Purity and Clemency get picked for a lot of fights, because they are equally big raid survivability/utility boosts. I suspect that if DKs weren't livin' life on the edge so frequently, Purgatory would feel a lot less mandatory.
Edited by Branar on 4/23/2013 4:13 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
14025
Mastery: Blood Shield
X% of physical damage taken is instead added to a healing absorption effect on you. You cannot have more healing absorption than you have maximum health.

Death Strike would be changed to include damage put into the healing absorb as well as damage actually taken.

Mastery would increase the amount deferred (the raw percentage) as well as the amount healed by Death Strike.

Yes, it's mechanically similar to stagger. There are only so many ways to make self-healing matter while keeping a class thematically oriented around healing itself.


Oh, this is clever. I like it.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
04/23/2013 04:11 PMPosted by Branar
I'm not convinced that having it as a talent is really all that problematic. Paladins have a tier where they pick between personal survivability (Unbreakable Spirit) and raid utility (Hand of Purity/Clemency) too.


Clemency is far more usable on yourself than AMZ is, since AMZ is really only meant as a raid cooldown, and is the only DK raid cooldown.

Maybe if it was Unbreakable vs AM vs Sacred Shield it might be similar.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
I agree completely with the first 2 posts outlining the problems.

Especially, I feel like the only way my tanking would be fair to my healers is if I could somehow take my addons that show my runes, blood shield, blood charges, sob stacks, and estimated DS heal, and have them all show on all their screens.

also yes, please fix amz lol
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
Well, hypothetically speaking, they could also shove Death Strike down to a single rune (frost or unholy) and reduce the per-heal effectiveness similarly. It's a question of just how available it is and not one of potency. We all know Death Strike / Blood Shield is very potent. Too potent really. It's just not *available* often enough.

With a 1.0 GCD now, you *could* legitimately have DS be used approximately once every couple seconds with better rune-throughput and lowered rune costs (with similar reductions on per-use potency obviously). That way your ability to react to incoming damage would basically be almost always right in step with it. Get hit, return fire. Get hit, return fire. Etc etc.
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100 Human Priest
15505
As for raid utility... I don't even know where to start. Nerf Bloodworm healing and allow overheals to apply an absorb shield to allies, maybe?


Have them be controllable(at least give them the 'move to spot' command) and give you the ability to detonate them on demand. Adjust healing as needed so it isn't OP.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Have them be controllable(at least give them the 'move to spot' command) and give you the ability to detonate them on demand. Adjust healing as needed so it isn't OP.

Was trying to avoid button bloat, but yes, this would definitely work.

Well, hypothetically speaking, they could also shove Death Strike down to a single rune (frost or unholy) and reduce the per-heal effectiveness similarly. It's a question of just how available it is and not one of potency. We all know Death Strike / Blood Shield is very potent. Too potent really. It's just not *available* often enough.

We're already close to GCD capped. Moving to a single-rune AM strike would completely GCD lock us, and I'm not really a fan of that playstyle.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
mmm I'm not close to gcd capped cept when I'm bursting

don't think I could be, either, most of that time sitting on 2-3 runes would just become spent sitting on 0 instead

I actually kind of like the idea, but I'd miss the occasional burstier heals/shield, too.

Maybe something like if you heart strike with a death rune it functions as a half a death strike somehow? Or even just something like siphon that doesn't completely remove our mastery.
Edited by Lailala on 4/23/2013 7:37 PM PDT
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90 Orc Warrior
5315
It's not a problem, it's a feature.

Use a warrior/paladin plus a death knight/monk.

They are supposed to have different strengths.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9385
They are supposed to have different strengths.


I don't think you understand the difference between a strength and a huge major flaw.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Flush, I'd accept that if there actually was a strength to it.

Right now, though, it's entirely a liability. Every other tank simply does it better.

Also, I don't even know why you're putting monks in the same category as death knights. Their active mitigation systems have nothing in common.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
There is a strength, it's just not relevant for heroic raiding - it trivializes low damage mechanics.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Used to be it was at least a partial advantage on normal, but with tank damage so high, it's not even an advantage there.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
Normal damage isn't really that high for T15 >_>
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100 Tauren Druid
14510
Yeah, this thread is very confusing given the 0 issues our DK's been having so far.

Hell, that "trivializing low tank damage" part has come in handy pretty often.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Used to be it was at least a partial advantage on normal, but with tank damage so high, it's not even an advantage there.


on normals we get the advantage of getting to use dps gear/stats!

wait a second...

Yeah, this thread is very confusing given the 0 issues our DK's been having so far.

Hell, that "trivializing low tank damage" part has come in handy pretty often.


Have you guys gotten to horridon final phase yet? It's seriously a whole new world. Jorms on crack, really.
Edited by Lailala on 4/23/2013 11:16 PM PDT
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