Blood DK issues; or, Look Ma, I Exploded!

90 Night Elf Death Knight
15950
Really like that you have posted this it does sum up a good amount of the issues, although I don't think it is as bad has people are making it out to be, using and having certain cd's for certain fights can save you from taking the massive hits. Personally I keep IBF glyphed just for that, and if that is not up I call out for a healer cd if I know I will be taking a large hit. Wasn't the talent and glyph system they established this xpac meant for you to swap talents and glyphs out for certain encounters?

We are currently on Lei Shen normal, so when we start heroics that might change my entire perception on this topic but for now I honestly believe Blood dks are where they are supposed to be.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
We're mostly fine on normal. I !@#$% about it, but we do well enough. No guarantees next tier, though, especially if tank damage continues to ramp up in order to keep mechanics threatening for the percentage mitigation (IE, everybody else) tanks.

Ask Lai about heroics.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
15950
Yeah next teir will be interesting. And I would rather not ask about heroics until I experience them myself and with my raid team :)
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
horridon down via throw cd's at me til I die and watch the block tank handle the last minute and a half with almost no outside cd's lol...

meta helped a little actually, but obviously no control
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97 Pandaren Monk
19680
The interesting thing about this thread is that you can clearly see who was a DK during firelands and who wasn't.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11255
The interesting thing about this thread is that you can clearly see who was a DK during firelands and who wasn't.

Glad I'm a BrM now =P Doing H Firelands before the Armor/HP change wasn't fun. Got my DK to 90 but the gameplay isn't nearly as fun.
Edited by Rikimu on 4/24/2013 8:52 AM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
9250
Krinu, have you tried Blood Tap? The Death rune return seems a fair bit higher than RC and you can't waste procs like you can with the other two.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Yeah, I have. Outside of a few specific fights that have burst resource generation phases (mostly Megaera), I find that the difference isn't that pronounced. BT gives me slightly more DS usage, RC gives me more DPS and raw healing (via Conversion).

When I swap back to a mastery build (assuming we start seeing mastery GEAR ever drop, FFS), I'll probably move to BT. Until then, I like the extra RP generation and damage that RC gives me.

Might as well take advantage of the huge health pool, right?
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90 Troll Death Knight
15650
In addition to everything I think rune tap needs to change as well. I think it needs to have no cooldown and the heal buff or scale off vengeance. That way we have to choose between damage (blood strike/blood boil) and survivability.

On the topic of raid utility. Whatever happens to it cannot be put in the talent tree. Choosing between personal and raid survivability is dumb. Either purgatory/lichborne needs to make baseline and give us a choice of raid cooldowns (BETTER bloodworms/AMZ/ Something else) or vice versa.

A good fix would be to make absorbs count as damage taken. A better fix would be dks scale of vengeance AS EVERY OTHER TANK DOES. The best fix (towards overall survivability) is to stop making encounters that hit hard but infrequently like they said they were going to. Lower the baseline swing timer, lower the baseline white swings. This allows more baseline hits in the 5 second window which results in a more accurate/consistant blood shield.
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100 Troll Death Knight
8545
Personally I've never seen an instance where I've felt like my current toolkit wasn't enough to at least adapt to the given situation. There's only a few moments where I've actually had some major issues. If you know what you're doing it's completely possible to chain about 6-8 death strikes back to back if you have to and then drop into a lichborne healing with a full bar of runic power starting out if need be. I've never been in a situation save once or twice i've had to do that. If I start taking large amounts of damage I can combo boneshield and IBF together or drop a vampiric blood followed by a death pact if need be. I'm sure there are legit issues but most of the time the better majority of dks i've seen simply don't know how to properly use their cds or the pros/cons of different talents/abilities and as such aren't able to adapt.

On the topic of raid utility. Whatever happens to it cannot be put in the talent tree. Choosing between personal and raid survivability is dumb. Either purgatory/lichborne needs to make baseline and give us a choice of raid cooldowns (BETTER bloodworms/AMZ/ Something else) or vice versa.


personally I believe lichborne should've been made baseline ages ago. this would allow them to put another survivability talent on the tier that could be meaningful. it doesn't make sense to me to have a talent like lichborne on the same tier as amz and purgatory which are survivability cds with lichborne being a healing/fearbreak.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
8690
Personally I've never seen an instance where I've felt like my current toolkit wasn't enough to at least adapt to the given situation. There's only a few moments where I've actually had some major issues. If you know what you're doing it's completely possible to chain about 6-8 death strikes back to back if you have to and then drop into a lichborne healing with a full bar of runic power starting out if need be. I've never been in a situation save once or twice i've had to do that. If I start taking large amounts of damage I can combo boneshield and IBF together or drop a vampiric blood followed by a death pact if need be. I'm sure there are legit issues but most of the time the better majority of dks i've seen simply don't know how to properly use their cds or the pros/cons of different talents/abilities and as such aren't able to adapt.


In overgeared or lower difficulty content, the DK skillset is more than adequate. The DK issues addressed in multiple threads (essentially since the Cata Beta) all have to do with HM progression content, especially as the harder hitting, later tier raids arrive in each expansion. It is here where you see the failing of the DK model of reactive tanking.

As I stated earlier, however, anyone currently playing a tanking as a DK in HM content or in a group that is currently struggling for progression due to low skill/undergeared situations should not hold their breath for QoL changes; they are not coming. It basically comes down to main switching or accepting your fate and muddling through as is.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9250
In addition to everything I think rune tap needs to change as well. I think it needs to have no cooldown and the heal buff or scale off vengeance. That way we have to choose between damage (blood strike/blood boil) and survivability.


Changing it to work off vengeance would be nice. 10% every 30 seconds really isn't very good compared to something like Expel Harm going from about 10% of my health to 50% with high Vengeance every 15 seconds, while giving me chi.

Moving Rune Tap to even 5%-15% (low-high vengeance) would be a nice fix, since the spell hasn't really caught up with the times.
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100 Pandaren Monk
11255
I forget can RT crit? Plus works the same way Monks use EH with WotN proc's at < 35% life.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
04/25/2013 09:18 AMPosted by Erymon
In overgeared or lower difficulty content, the DK skillset is more than adequate. The DK issues addressed in multiple threads (essentially since the Cata Beta) all have to do with HM progression content, especially as the harder hitting, later tier raids arrive in each expansion. It is here where you see the failing of the DK model of reactive tanking.


Because you can only "react" to damage with extremely limited frequency, and it simply does not match up with the rate at which the *need* to react is thrown at you.

If you can only react every 4-5 seconds but the dangerous spikes happen every 2-3 seconds, it doesn't take a lot of fancy math and logic to see where this problem is headed, and fast.
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90 Troll Death Knight
15650
No I believe rune tap cannot crit. Currently it's just a flat 10% health.

This is from my personal opinion, but blood dks should be weaker at the light hitting bosses and improved on the hard hitting bosses. Like I said before, reduce the base amount of death strike to 3.5% of max health and then either allow absorbs to count as damage taken or scale it off vengeance. Maybe double the cap of blood shield as well.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
No I believe rune tap cannot crit. Currently it's just a flat 10% health.

This is from my personal opinion, but blood dks should be weaker at the light hitting bosses and improved on the hard hitting bosses. Like I said before, reduce the base amount of death strike to 3.5% of max health and then either allow absorbs to count as damage taken or scale it off vengeance. Maybe double the cap of blood shield as well.


They can't let it straight up count absorbed damage for the heal, it would be way, way too much if I could get a 500k+ shield, get it all stripped in one hit, and get another even bigger one right after.
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100 Night Elf Druid
5925
They can't let it straight up count absorbed damage for the heal, it would be way, way too much if I could get a 500k+ shield, get it all stripped in one hit, and get another even bigger one right after.


If you have enough runes to death strike on every swing, I'm sure other DKs would love to know how you did it. On the other hand, if you're pooling runes for a specific expected damage spike, then I don't see why you *shouldn't* be able to put up big shields in rapid succession -- until you run out of runes.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
2 death strikes in close proximity is not uncommon at all. We get crazy numbers from our per-death-strike heal/shield because it's risky to be taking that kind of damage without cd's, eliminate the requirement to actually take damage and you're taking out the only real downside to the ability, and the numbers would just be off the charts.
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90 Troll Death Knight
15650
The problem with 2 death strikes in close proximity is one of two scenarios will usually occur.

1) Blood shield will cap on the second death strike leading to a waste
2) The second blood shield is small because you don't want to get scenario 1

I guess there's a 3rd where you do get both off succesfully and then have no runes for the next 8 seconds and get roflpwned.
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