Haste prot

90 Tauren Paladin
5675
Am I the only person who just really really really hate seeing them? I feel like all of our tanking nerfs are their fault.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
Yes.

All of those crippling nerfs stopping battle healer from being COMPLETELY out of control.

Also am I the only one who hates knowing you probably actually equipped that TF vial
Edited by Ðemolition on 4/27/2013 2:12 AM PDT
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
Optimal gearing is bad, now?
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90 Tauren Paladin
5675
All of those crippling nerfs stopping battle healer from being COMPLETELY out of control.
The reason it was out of control is completely their fault. It does not do that much healing unnerfed to a normally spec'd prot pally. It helps like any good glyph though.

Also am I the only one who hates knowing you probably actually equipped that TF vial
Yeah, its awful I know, But it replaced the even !@#$tier trinket from Ji-kun and it was the raid finder version. oh you're wearing that? pity.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
Either Ji-Kun trinket, even the 502 versions, are better than TF Vial for a Prot Pally.

"Normal specced Prot Pally" now means "I gear poorly because I can." More news at 11
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90 Tauren Paladin
5675
Optimal gearing is bad, now?
It's not how the class was supposed to be played. Blizzard has stated it. But instead of just fixing the problem, they just nerf us in general.
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90 Tauren Paladin
5675
Either Ji-Kun trinket, even the 502 versions, are better than TF Vial for a Prot Pally.
And no, not if used with the Shado-pan Assault trinket. It basically mutes incoming damage for upwards of 15 seconds.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14150
Am I the only person who just really really really hate seeing them?

I hope so, if only so that this absurd thread can languish in obscurity and die.

Why do people hate fun? It makes no sense to me at all.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
I don't even know where to begin with you, but I have the free time, so let's dive in.

1) It doesn't matter how the class was meant to be played. Brewmasters were "meant to be played" with Shuffle being a channeled spell. That's an insanely stupid idea.

Additionally, haste was MEANT to reduce the GCD and CDs of Prot Paladins. If it wasn't meant that way, Sanctity of Battle would have stayed Ret-only. It's feasible to say Blizzard did not foresee how ubiquitous haste gearing would have become, but Blizzard doesn't foresee or bother to foresee many things (like crit block capping for Prot Warriors, or armor capping on Guardians).

2) TF Vial has an appalling proc chance. If you offer logs, I will easily be able to show basically no procs over any boss fight. Then again, you probably don't know what logs are or how to use them, so zzz.

P.S. The "sweet" 16k dodge from the Shado-Pan mastery trinket is something like 5% dodge. Wow, that will totally stop all damage. Not.
Edited by Kangarooster on 4/27/2013 2:31 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
5675
1) It doesn't matter how the class was meant to be played. Brewmasters were "meant to be played" with Shuffle being a channeled spell. That's an insanely stupid idea.


That is the entire point of this whole thread, on whether or not people hate them, BECAUSE IT IS NOT HOW THE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED. Can you not read?

2) TF Vial has an appalling proc chance. If you offer logs, I will easily be able to show basically no procs over any boss fight. Then again, you probably don't know what logs are or how to use them, so zzz.

P.S. The "sweet" 16k dodge from the Shado-Pan mastery trinket is something like 5% dodge. Wow, that will totally stop all damage. Not.


The proc will always stack with the dodge, and with normal rotation not only mitigate damage, but also provide you with a critical WoG every time if at 5 stacks of BoG. Vs the pathetic 30k heal that comes from the Ji-kun trinket. While the WoG heal I have saw spike with no vengeance at over 150k mid raid. Yeah, Ji-kuns trinket rocks my world.
Edited by Juis on 4/27/2013 2:39 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
(reality: 4% chance from a chance) to always stacks on dodge to WoG crits

Please enlighten us to the huge gaps in logic
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90 Human Paladin
16250
It's not the expertise Ji-kun trinket that you really want anyway...
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
04/27/2013 02:39 AMPosted by Juis
That is the entire point of this whole thread, on whether or not people hate them, BECAUSE IT IS NOT HOW THE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED. Can you not read?
Why do you think it's not the way Prot is supposed to be played? Blizzard has only said they didn't expect haste builds to be so prolific, not that it's "not the way Prot is supposed to be played" - in fact, they promoted this playstyle from the outset by making Sanctity of Battle part of Protection as well as Retribution.
04/27/2013 02:39 AMPosted by Juis
The proc will always stack with the dodge,
Except no, it won't.

With the on:use you gain around 10-12% dodge, at the START of the use. The stacks decay very rapidly, and even a geared plate tank has under 15% dodge. That is pretty abysmal.

Additionally, the proc chance is 4% on a successful dodge. 4%. Never changes, no matter if you have a LFR version or heroic thunderforged. So it's RNG on top of RNG.
04/27/2013 02:39 AMPosted by Juis
Vs the pathetic 30k heal that comes from the Ji-kun trinket.
The proc isn't why you use either Ji-Kun trinket (and like a poster just commented, the expertise one isn't the one you want anyway), Spark of Zandalar, Lei Shen's Final Orders, or the plethora of other trinkets that Prot likes to use.
Edited by Kangarooster on 4/27/2013 2:55 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
5675
(reality: 4% chance from a chance) to always stacks on dodge to WoG crits


You are basically guaranteed the mastery proc from the dodge that you get from the Shado-pan trinket. You can say whatever you like with numbers, but I personally have never not gotten the mastery proc. So while your dodge is being slowly diminished you get the extra mastery which increases the heal from WoG. A non crit with 5 BoG is still WAYYYYYY better than that pathetic heal that the Ji-kun trinket drops.

The expertise is more important for haste tanks than it is mastery tanks.
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90 Tauren Paladin
5675
Also, as some of you may be forgetting, all that Plate haste gear tends to be meant for the plate DPS in your group, so its kinda stealing from your core at the beginning of the raid.
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90 Draenei Warrior
13785
04/27/2013 02:39 AMPosted by Juis
That is the entire point of this whole thread, on whether or not people hate them, BECAUSE IT IS NOT HOW THE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED. Can you not read?
I'm sorry, are you Ghostcrawler? Are you the person who decides how classes are supposed to be played? The fact that Blizzard haven't removed Sanctity of Battle from prot yet proves it's how they're meant to be played.

You are basically guaranteed the mastery proc from the dodge that you get from the Shado-pan trinket. You can say whatever you like with numbers, but I personally have never not gotten the mastery proc. So while your dodge is being slowly diminished you get the extra mastery which increases the heal from WoG. A non crit with 5 BoG is still WAYYYYYY better than that pathetic heal that the Ji-kun trinket drops.
With the Shado-pan trinket procced, I've got 23% dodge chance. Roughly. That means, in the 2 seconds when it's at max dodge, you've got a 1% or so chance for the Vial to proc on an incoming attack.

EDIT:
Also, as some of you may be forgetting, all that Plate haste gear tends to be meant for the plate DPS in your group, so its kinda stealing from your core at the beginning of the raid.
By that logic, boomkins are stealing all that healing leather from resto druids and mistweavers.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Edited by Waniou on 4/27/2013 3:06 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
5675
Why do you think it's not the way Prot is supposed to be played? Blizzard has only said they didn't expect haste builds to be so prolific, not that it's "not the way Prot is supposed to be played" - in fact, they promoted this playstyle from the outset by making Sanctity of Battle part of Protection as well as Retribution.


They only made it that way because for the longest time haste was worse than death for non healing pallys. They wanted it to be not worthless, but not a superior stat.

Spark of Zandalar, Lei Shen's Final Orders, or the plethora of other trinkets that Prot likes to use.
Believe me I would love to get a new trinket, the same as I would love a new car. But Alas I do not choose what the boss decided to drop for the week, and the DK I roll against is a lucky !@#$er when it comes to his rolls. The Ji-kun one does not do me any good. This one only sorta does. Read my comment before this for my experience with the proc rates. Maybe I'm extremely lucky, but who knows.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14150
I adore gearing haste as a Protection Paladin. It's fast paced, it feels responsive and keeps me feeling engaged in the fight. Even when I'm not holding the boss, trying to squeeze in that tiny bit of extra damage by salving myself and continuing to go full bore on the boss can be a total blast.

I love the control it's given me over my own survival. I realize that any control build would allow for that feeling, but it feels like it's magnified all the more with a haste gearing strategy. I'm not perfect; I know I could probably be a tiny bit better at my rotation but knowing that keeps me trying harder. Trying to keep as much uptime on Shield of the Righteous while also timing it to big hits is so much more fun than having to play the waiting game for a few seconds to make sure its up at that perfect moment.

When I'm gearing for haste it actually feels like I'm really getting somewhere. Every time I've gotten a substantial haste upgrade I can really feel the difference it makes it my survival. Even back when I was still gearing up in 5 man dungeons I could feel the difference every time I got a new piece of gear. This as opposed to gearing for a "magic number" like the avoidance cap, which was never anywhere near as satisfying. It felt like a chore more than anything else. I took less and less damage, which is great, but nothing really felt different as that number slowly crawled higher and higher.

I don't feel like a damage sponge anymore. I feel like I'm in the boss' face, kicking !@# on the front lines. I'm on the edge of my seat trying to take a little damage as I possibly can through thorough and smart play. Why...WHY would someone dislike this?!

That said, I see where you're coming from, OP. The disapproving murmurs from the developers about how they "didn't expect" haste to become such a popular stat for us, and their musings about nerfs targeted at making it much less appealing scare the **** out of me, too. Their uncertainty makes me uncertain, and I'm living in fear of the big haste nerf I know is coming. How do I know? Because all of this feels too good to be true.

On the other hand, so far it seems like Blizz is interested in seeing how this goes. For the most part it seems as though they've tried to just let this play out. It seems like they're kind of on the fence about this, not sure if this should become the new normal. I feel like the spec is being watched very carefully and that Blizzard hasn't decided quite what to do yet, but every patch we go without a major slash to SoB or ShoR makes me breathe a bit easier. It makes me feel like the devs are on my side. At least I hope so.

I will not underestimate the power of threads like these to whip up the villagers into a pitchfork and torch wielding frenzy, though. Popular opinion and player outrage has made the difference in the past when it comes to these sorts of things. So every time I see a thread like this I die a little inside.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
They only made it that way because for the longest time haste was worse than death for non healing pallys. They wanted it to be not worthless, but not a superior stat.
And in the process, haste became the best mitigation stat for Protection. That's why every (smart) Prot Pally goes for haste. You can debate endlessly whether it's intended or not but you'd be wrong, because they specifically added in Sanctity of Battle to Protection (in Cataclysm it was Ret-only) so that Protection COULD gear haste if they wanted. And they did, and do.
04/27/2013 03:05 AMPosted by Juis
The Ji-kun one does not do me any good.
If a significant amount of expertise is worthless, sure? It's not, though.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
04/27/2013 02:57 AMPosted by Juis
You are basically guaranteed the mastery proc from the dodge that you get from the Shado-pan trinket.

No.

You.

Aren't.

Let's pretend that you have a 100% chance to dodge attacks with for the 20 seconds that the shado-pan trinket is active. Every attack is dodged. Every single one. This is completely unrealistic, but there you go.

Bosses have a 1.5 second swing timer. This means that in those 20 seconds, you will dodge 30 times.

The chance of not getting a proc is 96%. This means that the chance of getting no procs thirty times in a row is 0.96^30, or 0.2938.

Even with a one hundred percent chance to dodge for twenty seconds, you still only have a 71% chance to activate the trinket.

04/27/2013 02:57 AMPosted by Juis
You can say whatever you like with numbers, but I personally have never not gotten the mastery proc.

Wow. You're special.
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