Combustion values

90 Goblin Mage
17675
My guild asked me to switch to fire for heroic progression tonight, which I've been holding out doing for as long as possible because I hate the spec...but taking one for the team I made the switch and started practicing cause I haven't played it since Cata. Like most fire noobs I feel like my combusts are lacking and I'm wondering what thresholds more experienced fire players try to hit for their combustion.

I know it can vary wildly by the fight, but what would good numbers be on a target dummy with only AI buff and exactly 522 ilvl? I've tried doing PoM/AT combos and the best i've been able to see is a 40k ignite (which translates into 20k combust if I understand it correctly). I've seen mages talking about 100k+ ignites in ToT - is that strictly on fights with increased damage buffs like Horridon and Jin'rokh, or do raid buffs/flasks/food/pots make that much of a difference? Or am I just being bad with my combustion?
Edited by Swiftyclicks on 4/29/2013 11:36 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Mage
10355
Raid ignites are much much higher than target dummy attacks. Mastery Buff, Stats, Curse of Elements, and Skull Banner add up a lot. That said, you should probably be able to get 60k+ with your opener. I feel like I come across as a broken record with this, but this is good to know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Klp_A7vbyy8
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90 Gnome Mage
10820
I use it like this:

1st use -> proc pyro - pom - at - pyro x2 or more - at - pyro x2 or more - combust

2nd use -> pyro proc - fb - pyro - pom - pyro - combust

then back to step one. Any extra proc pyro's in there just make it that much better. With combust glyphed this works out every time.
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90 Goblin Mage
17675
1st use -> proc pyro - pom - at - pyro x2 or more - at - pyro x2 or more - combust


That's what I've been doing, and I still can't get much over a 40k ignite on a dummy. I did just try a scenario and was able to reach over 60k+ a few times outside of the opener with just the mastery buff, so maybe it is just a matter of being in a raid environment.
Edited by Swiftyclicks on 4/30/2013 1:42 AM PDT
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Combustion and ignite dots arent fun for me, they are these little pizzweak dots. Who cares about it?

I'd love to see the spreadable dot idea removed and the ignite only works on the 1 target, but hit harder.

With the replacement of spreading with more powerful bombs and nerf to pyro, why even bother with any spreading, we just end up with these crappy little dots taking up space on recount.

The combustion stun and combustion crit on frozen targets for hot streak procing is unarguable good.

The dots arent fun anymore.
Edited by Curioxicity on 4/30/2013 7:56 AM PDT
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Combustion and ignite dots arent fun for me, they are these little pizzweak dots. Who cares about it?


I know. I just hate a spreadable 30-50k/sec DoT spell. Who wants to have one spell do as much as 250K/sec for 20 seconds?

OP: Why do they feel you should switch? Frost is still very good, even at higher gear.
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RNG is RNG. With the above opener burst (with AT) fully raid buffed I still can get a range of 40k-100k of combustion. 40k with AT... pathetic.
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90 Orc Mage
15520
Combustion and ignite dots arent fun for me, they are these little pizzweak dots. Who cares about it?

I'd love to see the spreadable dot idea removed and the ignite only works on the 1 target, but hit harder.

With the replacement of spreading with more powerful bombs and nerf to pyro, why even bother with any spreading, we just end up with these crappy little dots taking up space on recount.


What?

Ignite and Combustion are usually very high on my recount list of spells. Though fireball and pryoblast are always on top followed by current bomb, ignite and combustion still make up for at least 30-40% of the damage you do.

I can see them taking away pyroblast dot and buffing ignite slighty in order to make up for it, but take away the spreadable dot idea? So fire mages would have absolutely NO aoe capabilities?
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90 Draenei Mage
13405
70k ignite is about what I average in ToT and 40k is my absolute worst if I get really bad and I mean really bad rng. Though usually 100k is very normal when things line up. and on some insane occasions ive seen 150k to 170k ignites but those are rare. Tho I really wish that our aoe was better...even with every possible situation and proper rotation my aoe still pales in comparison to other dps. However, I do agree with the above poster that ignite and spreading dots makes up to 40 percent of our damage so why would you not use it...sure its not fun like the old days but the percentage is not something to be ignored... I don't like the idea of being a single target dps only, if they took that component away we would be out dpsed by a disc preist lol
Edited by Icyboltz on 4/30/2013 12:04 PM PDT
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90 Goblin Mage
17675
OP: Why do they feel you should switch? Frost is still very good, even at higher gear.


Because even though Frost is still competitive, Fire does pull away at this gear level. They want me to try it and see how it goes, and if it's not a measurable difference I can go back. Though with my inexperience with the current state of fire I don't think we could make a fair comparison until I've gotten a couple weeks worth of practice in.
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Who wants to have one spell do as much as 250K/sec for 20 seconds?


Well, I'll post some average values from recount in my next bg. Im not saying the total, aggregate damage in a bg is bad, or unbalanced or it needs a buff. What Im saying is, theres no eye candy, theres nothing impressive, its a carry over from the days of spreading.

When they nerfed spreading, they may as well have just made combustion a single target move. And while theyre at it, just forget about ignite. Old school ignite from classic was fun, it made a cool crashing noise when it procd and was significant...it had bugs and problems to be sure, but it was cooler.

Now, its basically this emasculated mastery ability that really has the stun and guaranteed hot streak proc on frozen targets as its drawcard, not the dot...we all accept the dot and take it for granted that it spreads but its uninspiring and could just be rolled into ignite damage and forgotten imo. ignite hits like a noodle, combustion dot hits like a noodle, living bomb hits hard but was removed from spreading and pyro dot wees all over them. Two useless dots, when we could just forget em and have them rolled into the single target combustion and save ourselves the trouble of having to even deal with its existence.

Turd that wont flush...that's a saying that comes to mind with our mastery as it stands right now.
Edited by Curioxicity on 5/1/2013 12:53 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
10970
A big difference in combustion/burst dmg is making sure you pop cd's while Trinkets are proc'd. I'm sure with you being in HM's now, you understand this, but you can't really stress enough on using cd's with trinkets. With that being said, generally speaking, your first burst session is usually the only one with every trinket/proc being up.

I'm not a math guru by any means, but my avg combustion tick in a raid is around 50-60k, assuming I got off 2-4 pyro's on the ignite.

One last thing, is making sure your pyromaniac debuff is up on the target when your unloading your 4-7 pyro's, and also trying for 1 pyro proc with a heating up charge when using PoM/AT. Lots of things factor into getting that perfect combustion, but it is totally worth it when everything goes according to plan!
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90 Blood Elf Mage
10970
Well, I'll post some average values from recount in my next bg


BG combusts aren't the OP's problem.
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BG combusts aren't the OP's problem.


Doesn't matter, I am taking advantage of the thread to insert my own feelings about the spell and its unglammer.
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I can see them taking away pyroblast dot and buffing ignite slighty in order to make up for it


See this just shows you the gulf between what pvp fire experiences compared to pve fire.

On my recount, I am seeing pyro dot absolutely smashing ignite and combustion dots.

Because of constantly having to be on the move, I also don't see fireball doing much, although I do use it.

In fire pvp, its pyro, pyro dot, LB, LB dot, inferno blast and scorch that dominate the meters...just about every time.

I guess its just the old combustion/ignite/pyro spreading being good for those mindless magnetized trash phases.

Fair enough, but still, remove ignite/combustion and bring back living bomb spreading...what an even cooler idea, half the fire mages cry for that anyway.
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90 Troll Mage
12720
04/30/2013 02:04 PMPosted by Swiftyclicks
OP: Why do they feel you should switch? Frost is still very good, even at higher gear.


Because even though Frost is still competitive, Fire does pull away at this gear level. They want me to try it and see how it goes, and if it's not a measurable difference I can go back. Though with my inexperience with the current state of fire I don't think we could make a fair comparison until I've gotten a couple weeks worth of practice in.


You ARE NOT in HEROIC gear yet, and if you do not have at least 40% crit self buffed stay FROST, you will do more consistent and better DPS then fire. Trust me when I say, sure once in awhile when the stars align and the RNG gods grant you 5 pyro CRITS with ur PoM/AT combo then you may do better than Frost. But again that isn't always the case.

And if you aren't good at Fire, you be more of a hinderance to your HM progression than a help. If they are asking you to go Fire cause you are doing poorly as Frost, then you prob do worse with Fire. Unless your Min/Max with Frost right now. Fire is going to make it even harder and you might end up pulling hairs out of every part of your body!! lol

I say stay Frost until you can have >43-45% self buffed Crit or around >16,000 crit rating before you can expect Fire to surpass Frost and even then with the new SIMC out. you have Fire>Arcane>Frost as the top 3 DPS specs in T15H gear. With the difference being like 2-3K difference from Fire to Frost.

Ultimately I say play what you enjoy, but in reality Frost is very OP right now.
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