Archimonde's Vengeance Ideas

100 Gnome Warlock
13070
Why not have Archimonde's Vengeance buff the warlock instead of passively doing reflected damage? It's way more fun when YOU get to dish out the pain as your enemies attack you.

Here's the idea:

"Whenever you take direct damage, your ties to the nether strengthen, increasing your damage dealt by X%. This effect is increased as your health decreases "


Think like, warlock version of the Resto Shaman mastery. This could be altered or limited in various ways:

  • Short duration is ideal. Immediate Vengeance is the best kind, right?
  • A cooldown might also be appropriate, perhaps for increased effect (as it functions currently).
  • Maybe just "the next spell" for on-use effect- solves a lot of balance issues
  • Slow to increase, quick to cap- It has to have a reasonable % range, otherwise the damage gets out of control quickly with other cooldowns in the mix.
  • Trigger range?- might not want a full 100-0 spectrum, or even a linear scale (again, like the Rsham mastery)

A huge draw for me here is how it would interact with talents and health-manipulating abilities. Sacrificial Pact or Dark Bargain to gamble and stay at low health? Soul Link to have a bigger health pool to work with? Dark Regen/Healthstone/Ember Tap, or keep the damage rolling?

If Thorns and Eye for an Eye weren't compelling before, I don't think AV's current implementation does much better. The goal is to make the warlock threatening to attack, not the spell, right?
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Warlock
13070
would force locks to be at dangerously low levels of hp to do decent damage in pve. wishful thinking though.

if anything, it would be nice to have a stacking buff, accumulating charges, similar to the melee legendary metagem, except, instead of just getting charges for free, you get them when you're hit for x% of your hp, no less, or something. idk. either way the talent is useless.


It triggers off of direct damage. You can't [usually] force a boss to target you with an attack, but it would allow an observant player to retaliate to those random attacks.

Alternatively, maybe AV could boost your damage by a % based on the amount of damage you've taken recently, not your current health (I.E. - like the tanking mechanic, Vengeance). I just felt that was a little too copy & paste. Also, it arguably encourages the lock to take more damage than the first model I proposed. The charge idea might be a nice alternative though. Kind of a "Lightning Capacitor meets Vengeance" idea?
Edited by Dalmasca on 4/25/2013 10:38 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Warlock
11210
Doing damage based on taking damage is a really dangerous mechanic to give to a pure DPS class. There's a reason nearly all of the "take damage as you deal damage" mechanics have been removed, and the few that are left have been toned down significantly. Raiders tend to hate them, because they feel like they are being punished for not being risky enough, but then also punished when they *are* risky and it bites them. Healers absolutely loath it. In general, it makes the class as a whole less desirable because they present an additional burden, both strategically and logistically, to the raid, for no true compensating benefit.

Not sure I like the fundamental theme of AV anyway. KC increases our mobility by an extraordinary degree. MF increases our AoE flexibility by an extraordinary degree. In order to compete, AV needs to increase some other facet of our play by a similar degree. My personal vote is to either increase our durability (though this may not really need any more of an increase) or our utility.
Edited by Daerius on 4/26/2013 12:00 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Orc Warlock
16355
Not sure I like the fundamental theme of AV anyway. KC increases our mobility by an extraordinary degree. MF increases our AoE flexibility by an extraordinary degree. In order to compete, AV needs to increase some other facet of our play by a similar degree. My personal vote is to either increase our durability (though this may not really need any more of an increase) or our utility.


Going with the same theme of KJC and MF, AV could be changed to increase the maximum range of our spells. That would likely result in something that's either overpowered or worthless, however.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Warlock
13070
04/25/2013 11:59 PMPosted by Daerius
Doing damage based on taking damage is a really dangerous mechanic to give to a pure DPS class. There's a reason nearly all of the "take damage as you deal damage" mechanics have been removed, and the few that are left have been toned down significantly. Raiders tend to hate them, because they feel like they are being punished for not being risky enough, but then also punished when they *are* risky and it bites them. Healers absolutely loath it. In general, it makes the class as a whole less desirable because they present an additional burden, both strategically and logistically, to the raid, for no true compensating benefit.


I agree, in part. Touch of Karma is nearly identical though and can do massive amounts of damage in PvE. Moreover, that one doesn't require the damage to target you. This design does. How often do you get repeatedly targeted with a spell in PvE? In my experience, it's very rare. Rare enough that they can make case-by-case changes to inactivate abuse of it (see: Dark Simulacrum on Al'akir fix)

Not sure I like the fundamental theme of AV anyway. KC increases our mobility by an extraordinary degree. MF increases our AoE flexibility by an extraordinary degree. In order to compete, AV needs to increase some other facet of our play by a similar degree. My personal vote is to either increase our durability (though this may not really need any more of an increase) or our utility.


I like the theme of AV. It's very warlock-y to pay a high price to gain power. I'll admit though, I'm not sure if it matches well with the other 90 talents.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
11835
It effectively sounds like tank vengeance for locks, which is a nifty idea. But in practice, I don't think it would work.

In PVE, it would be wildly gimmicky for reasons stated above.

In PVP, it would mean that warlocks were never a viable target for enemy teams. Because whether they leave warlocks the way they are right now, or they nerf their damage to compensate for this expected increase, the enemy team would simply stay off the warlock to make sure he does as little damage as possible.

Going with the same theme of KJC and MF, AV could be changed to increase the maximum range of our spells. That would likely result in something that's either overpowered or worthless, however.


Now this would interesting.
Reply Quote
100 Human Warlock
10810
ok i wont say nothing about the % of damage and the fact that tiers of talents are based around tiers of talents and dps of the class all all that thing.

now the archimonde vengence giving you a Nice Spell range increace? this is new and its awesome!

this would be near the level of awesomeness of MF and KJC!
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Warlock
13070
It effectively sounds like tank vengeance for locks, which is a nifty idea. But in practice, I don't think it would work.

In PVE, it would be wildly gimmicky for reasons stated above.


Did you read through the rest of the thread or just the first post? We addressed other ways it could avoid PvE gimmicks.

In PVP, it would mean that warlocks were never a viable target for enemy teams.

The idea is to make the warlock a dangerous target. Remember though, if it used a cooldown model, the lock would be vulnerable when it's down.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Warlock
9210
Sounds like it would have massive synergy with Dark Apo. I'm intrigued by the idea.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warlock
13800
Archimonde's Vengeance - Passive
20% of Direct Damage taken is reflected back at the attacker.


1. Does not promote standing in the fire for a DPS increase.

2. Discourages Locks as a focus target for long periods of time in PvP.

3. Situational DPS increase, as are MF and KJC, that is a competitive option for the tier of talents.

4. Double Dips on resilience, so it would come out to like 10% reflect for enemies in PvP.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warlock
11105
Archimonde's Vengeance - Passive
20% of Direct Damage taken is reflected back at the attacker.


1. Does not promote standing in the fire for a DPS increase.

2. Discourages Locks as a focus target for long periods of time in PvP.

3. Situational DPS increase, as are MF and KJC, that is a competitive option for the tier of talents.

4. Double Dips on resilience, so it would come out to like 10% reflect for enemies in PvP.


surprisingly agreed. though i would still like a focus option for example when u need to attack a healer and there are 2 dps on you.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warlock
13800


1. Does not promote standing in the fire for a DPS increase.

2. Discourages Locks as a focus target for long periods of time in PvP.

3. Situational DPS increase, as are MF and KJC, that is a competitive option for the tier of talents.

4. Double Dips on resilience, so it would come out to like 10% reflect for enemies in PvP.


surprisingly agreed. though i would still like a focus option for example when u need to attack a healer and there are 2 dps on you.


Probably better off popping a defensive CD for that kind of situation. Altho perhaps adding in this use ability could work:

100% of direct damage taken is dealt to the target for 10 seconds. Archimonde's Vengeance's passive effect is disabled on CD

edit: altho I think that is a bit much to be honest. Should be good with just the passive.
Edited by Methalos on 4/28/2013 2:28 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Undead Warlock
13800
100% of direct damage taken is dealt to the target for 10 seconds. Archimonde's Vengeance's passive effect is disabled on CD

edit: altho I think that is a bit much to be honest. Should be good with just the passive.

I don't see what's wrong with 100%, I mean touch of karma is 100% :P


I am not sure how balanced that would be with the passive ability tho.

Altho AV is a lvl 90 talent while ToK is baseline. Would need some solid PTR testing before implementation.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Warlock
13070
Definitely a legitimate alternative, considering the ret paladin mechanic, Eye for an Eye, used this exact mechanic in past expansions. I still like the idea of it having more of a scale so the effect is more dynamic. (I'd like to add that the mechanic I proposed also functions with direct damage only).

20% passively reflected all the time means the warlock is equally threatening at full health as they are at low health. To put it in perspective, that's almost the current AV's active effect on all the time. That seems more like what Lmcm mentioned above, where locks are never the ideal target. Seems a bit unfair to me.

Now, numbers can always be tested and tweaked - let's not focus too much on those. But, I think the Warlock kit thrives off of getting more power out of health deficits. That's the theme I wanted to explore.

Here's the question:

"Assuming the numbers/mechanics were all tweaked reasonably... Would you enjoy getting stronger as you get damaged? Would you enjoy that more or less than reflecting damage?"
Edited by Dalmasca on 4/28/2013 8:24 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Warlock
13070
Surely the recent PTR has spurred some new thoughts on this tier and this talent, in particular.

Where do you see this ability going in popularity, and what changes would you make to it?
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
9800
I am still for completely removing AV and looking at new concepts. Such as....a new DoT I can talent into!!!!!
Reply Quote
100 Orc Warlock
12975
As of now, no change in popularity as there's no mention of it being tweaked, and it's still crap. There might be a few more takers now that the other two talents are nearly as terrible, but still.

I don't think they'd have to do much to make the talent somewhere approaching useful. Double the damage reflected maybe, and/or allow pets to reflect damage. and/or refine how damage is reflected when it's actually your shield getting hit, and not you.

What could be done to simply make the ability cool instead of simply a trivial, boring DPS gain?

How about we rename it to something like Demonic Mimicry and let the damage done to you build up as charges. Once you have enough, you manually unleash it as a hard-hitting attack that is visually identical (if perhaps more localized) to one (or even all of) the attacks used on you that led to the buildup, within reason of course.

How fun would it be to sick your own blessed loa spirit back on High Priestess Mar'li in the council fight, or breathe back on Tortos?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]