Level 75 Talents and tanking.

89 Orc Death Knight
12320
Hey guys, new Broknight here with a question.

I understand for pvping I want to focus on Blood Tap for those free death runes. (Speaking mainly unholy.) But for blood what talent is good? I like Runic Corruption. But I recall there are tricks to using runic empowerment to "control" what runes come up.

Can anyone give me some insight?
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
13570
Basically, BT lets you get the runes when you want them. RC gives you consistent faster rune regen, and a bit more dps than BT. RE isn't really that great for tanking afaik. Gives you orphaned runes, leaving you sitting on that rune hoping that another RE proc will come about when you need it. PL helps it a bit, but its worse than BT/RC.

Imo, BT is better than RC because you can time that extra DS better.

Theres a tanking guide stickied up top, btw.
Edited by Niernen on 4/27/2013 8:17 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
14765
RC if you're lazy, RE if you're stupid, and BT if you want to play properly.
Edited by Furor on 4/27/2013 9:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Death Knight
14365
RC if you're lazy, RE if you're stupid, and BT if you want to play properly.


Come on, there's a bit more to it than that. RC is a legitimate dps gain over BT. More death strikes overall as well, just not on demand. It's preference.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
9975
It's preference.
It's also fight dependent. Some fights favor one over the other. If it has consistent damage intake but a high dps requirement, RC. If it has predictable burst damage, BT. RC nothing to do with "laziness".
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
7385
RC lets you sit on an FU pair and sacrifice minimal DPS potential doing so. It's the only level 75 talent that doesn't require fully depleted runes to maximize use.

This lets you save Death Strikes for when you need them, and keep Soul Reaper rolling during execute phases.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
9975
04/28/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Kilmor
It's the only level 75 talent that doesn't require fully depleted runes to maximize use.
yes but through proper play BT will also allow for no loss of rune throughput while timing DS.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13750
RC if you're lazy, RE if you're stupid, and BT if you want to play properly.


I'd take your advice if you were better geared, enchanted everything, or were further progressed than I..

Although I have had a feeling I should switch to BT..

I really hate how they took away having both BT and RE at the same time.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
10370
The other people said it pretty well.

Holy crap, you're on my realm, though.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
04/29/2013 05:03 AMPosted by Aziker
I'd take your advice if you were better geared, enchanted everything, or were further progressed than I..


This is a terrible basis on which to make a decision.

The sticky covers this topic:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7416264606#2
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13750
I'd take your advice if you were better geared, enchanted everything, or were further progressed than I..


This is a terrible basis on which to make a decision.

The sticky covers this topic:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7416264606#2


I wasn't saying it was bad advice.

I was saying I wasn't going to take his/her advice mostly due to the lack of raiding. My reasoning, the person does not have first hand knowledge in a raid setting on what one really is better.

The lack of enchants shows me that the person is being lazy, and thus probably hasn't researched things properly.

Btw, grats on 90. Did you switch mains for MoP or something?
Edited by Aziker on 4/29/2013 8:51 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
18040


The sticky covers this topic:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7416264606#2


I read through that whole topic and couldn't find any mention of why RE is bad. The talent section only references BT and RC and doesn't mention RE at all. The dps section mentions gaming RE for blood runes (why would you do this? it's not really a dps gain in current gear for most dks from looking through a number of logs--their ds is hitting for 2x hs for nearly all of them). But there's no mention of why RE would make someone "stupid" for using it. Did I miss a section or is this discussed elsewhere?
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Death Knight
8995
I really hate how they took away having both BT and RE at the same time.


Old BT < New BT

The new Blood Tap is FANTASTIC, the old one just gave a clutch rune.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Death Knight
9975
I read through that whole topic and couldn't find any mention of why RE is bad. The talent section only references BT and RC and doesn't mention RE at all. The dps section mentions gaming RE for blood runes (why would you do this? it's not really a dps gain in current gear for most dks from looking through a number of logs--their ds is hitting for 2x hs for nearly all of them). But there's no mention of why RE would make someone "stupid" for using it. Did I miss a section or is this discussed elsewhere?


If we chose our t5 based on DS/min then RE would be not only viable but optimal, but remember that it's not not how often you DS, but WHEN you DS. Take two DK tanks. One has a decent amount more DS/min but doesn't place his DS as well, and the other has less DS/min but places EVERY death strike after burst damage. Assuming they are both on progression content where tank damage intake matters, the second DK will always be more STABLE. The first might have have a slightly higher hps at the end of the day, but who cares about overall numbers? your overall numbers can be great but you can still die if you burst hard enough for ~3-4 seconds out of a 12 minute fight.

In order to time death strike right, we need to have an FU pair at the ready. If it takes you ~2-3 global cooldowns to react to damage then you're going to have a bad time, and if you spike with no FU runes with RE, that's whats going to happen. You need to hit RS enough to proc two times with RE to get an FU pair back, which means there will be many times you will find yourself unable to death strike WHEN you need to, regardless how often you do end up death striking. You could try to minimize the danger by only putting FU runes down when you need to dump rp, but with a (napkin math inc) 45% chance to proc and only 100 RP max you have at BEST a .45*.45+.45*.55 = 45% chance to get both back. If you were to try and dump RP with <90 RP you would be looking at .45*.45 = 20.25% chance that you get both to proc. So in summation, even with a max RP bar you still have a 55% chance that you will end up with xBxDxx, which means you cannot react with death strike for the next ~5-7 seconds.

And even if you get lucky, you are going to need 2-3 global cooldowns to get those 2-3 rune strikes out, which means 2-3 seconds from when you put the FU runes down to when you can DS again. Remember this little RP dump has to happen a LOT and you have to put both FUs down every time you do it, and if you cap RP because you waited on an FU pair to place a DS right, you've lost throughput which is the only possible argument for RE. So even though it might have the best DS/min, look at how much time you have to be without FU pairs and unable to react to any dmg JUST to get your t5 to give you death strikes back.

Now look at RC and BT. neither of them have the theoretical overall DS/min of RE sure, but neither of them require you to put your FU pairs down to get the benefit. Meaning if you are running with BT or RC, the only reason you would ever need to be without an FU pair is if you actually needed to use them both for timing purposes. This incredible in terms of DK tank stability and consistency, because death strike timing is SO much more consistent with either of these talents.

RC has a 45% chance to proc, and even though it only procs for 30% of a DS it only needs to proc once. Compare this to RE which has to proc at least 2 times out of a maximum 3 chances every time you have an RP dump. Assuming you had 90 RP. With RE you'd have a 45% chance to get your FU pairs back and a 55% chance that you'll be left with no FU pair. With RC you have a .45+.45*55+.45*.6975 = 83.4% chance to get a rune cycle shortened, on top of the fact that you don't have to put your FU pairs down in the first place, meaning even if you don't proc any you should still have an FU pair available.

So it's the difference between theoretical maximum DS/min that puts you at risk every time you need to dump RP or an almost guaranteed hastened rune regen that allows you to hang on to an FU pair for as long as you need to.

Now do you see why I left it out of the sticky? The explanation is fairly long and not required for 99.9% of the wow population. I'd rather explain it as it comes up for those who want a more in depth reason, and am happy to do that.

Also, I should probably remove RE for dps in the dps section. It's theoretically a gain, but in a dps build you should also have a ton of haste, which makes it realistically inferior to due even high level player imperfection.

EDIT: also,
04/29/2013 08:51 AMPosted by Aziker
I was saying I wasn't going to take his/her advice mostly due to the lack of raiding.
never let progression or guild rank dictate theorycrafting. I'm going to start raiding for the US #4 25m guild (#3 with exodus out of the picture), but i've got roughly the same level of knowledge as I did when I was tanking for fallout, which wasn't even top 130 us 25m. Sure i've learned a few new things, and found better ways of explaining old things, but my point is progression and guild rank has just as much to do with the amount of time you can afford to put into the game as it does with knowledge of the game, and if you limit yourself to only taking advice from people who are more progressed than yourself, you are losing the perspective of a lot of really intelligent players who maybe just can't afford to raid more than once a week with a casual guild.
Edited by Reniat on 4/29/2013 2:55 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13750
04/29/2013 01:13 PMPosted by Selsix
I really hate how they took away having both BT and RE at the same time.


Old BT < New BT

The new Blood Tap is FANTASTIC, the old one just gave a clutch rune.


Yes, but you able to use them together. You didn't have to pick one over the other.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Death Knight
17940
I favor RC mostly because I like the runes returning evenly. To each their own. If I tanked more often I'd of course change between BT and RC depending on the fight type. Just like talents like Desecrated Ground and Remorseless Winter, BT and RC have their places. RE is for when I dps not when I want to reliably death strike and not worry about what runes I let sit or how many charges before I spend RP and so on.
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
18040
Thanks Reniat for the detailed response. I didn't really have an issue with the sticky except that someone called RE stupid and someone else said to read the sticky to understand that description and then there was no discussion in there at all about it.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Death Knight
17940
Thanks Reniat for the detailed response. I didn't really have an issue with the sticky except that someone called RE stupid and someone else said to read the sticky to understand that description and then there was no discussion in there at all about it.


Keep in mind to that Reniat is very careful about completely discarding things in his guide. It's meant to be general and to help players understand how it's played. But if for example he wrote do exactly these 5 things and don't do the rest because they're bad then he'd be attacked day and night.

In particular it's easy to put on paper which spell does the most damage but tanking is not so clear cut. For example which talent is best for Bob the tank on one boss is different for Bill on a different Boss. On top of that tanking is more less clear cut because your raid make of healer class types alone can change things. Even which class is your off tank can be a deciding factor.
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
18040
The problem with leaving out a whole talent discussion is it also removes any discussion of it. After reading his comparison of RE and RC, I don't agree with his assessment that RC is clearly better.

For example,
RC has a 45% chance to proc, and even though it only procs for 30% of a DS it only needs to proc once. Compare this to RE which has to proc at least 2 times out of a maximum 3 chances every time you have an RP dump. With RE you'd have a 45% chance to get your FU pairs back and a 55% chance that you'll be left with no FU pair. With RC you have a .45+.45*55+.45*.6975 = 83.4% chance to get a rune cycle shortened, on top of the fact that you don't have to put your FU pairs down in the first place, meaning even if you don't proc any you should still have an FU pair available.


This mostly ignores the fact that RE instantly procs runes and RC doesn't. Even if RC has a higher chance to proc, the time it takes to get a DS from RC isn't necessarily faster than that from RE. And sitting on runes as RC is just as much a waste as is sitting on them with RE. It may feel better that it still appears that you're getting a benefit out of RC that way, it's only working 66% as well as it should if you're sitting on a DS pair.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Death Knight
17940
The main thing for RC that the others don't have is it resets them evenly while the other options only give 50% of a death strike when they do proc. This can be awesome and bad at the same time. Which is why he brings up the needing enough RP to return 2nd rune for the strike and so on. Nothing is perfect though. Each talent has it's pros and cons and naturally when defending one talent or another it's a little to easy to pull the worst case scenario for it at will. Either way much like dps sitting on runes for a long duration is a loss no matter which lvl 75 talent you choose to use.
Edited by Tor on 4/29/2013 3:43 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]