Suggestion: Make 'DPS' Stats -> Avoidance

55 Gnome Death Knight
0
As I read on the front page of MMO tonight, from the recent Live Developer Q&A, one of the points brought up was regarding 'Active Mitigation':

How do you feel active mitigation turned out and what would you do if you could change it?
We actually like it a lot. We want to make secondary stats (like haste is for paladins) more useful to all the tanks. We also might do something different with avoidance long term. It's functional but not as exciting as active mitigation in our opinion.


What are the two traditional 'Tank-only' secondary stats? Dodge and Parry
What are the two traditional 'DPS-only' secondary stats? Crit and Haste (Haste being great for Paladins is only true since 5.0)

Well, they are kicking around the idea of doing something different long term with avoidance, so I propose they simply get rid of it altogether from tank gear and just use the DPS stats in their place. Now, how would that work?

- Haste makes you move faster, right? Moving faster would probably make you harder to hit?
Haste->Dodge

- Crit makes you more likely to wield your weapon in a manner that allows you to hit vital spots? One could argue then that this increased weapon proficiency translates into being able to better deflect incoming attacks with your weapon.
Crit->Parry

(Now, I'm not necessarily saying that 1% Haste/Crit == 1% Dodge/Parry for free. Maybe 50 or 75% of the 'dps' stat goes to what it actually is called, and only the other 50 or 25% goes towards the corresponding 'avoidance' stat. The actual values can be adjusted and tweaked by Blizz to find a happy balance as needed.)

And while it may seem crazy to just do away with traditional 'tanking' vs 'dps' plate and be left with only 'str' vs 'int' plate (The latter usable by only one spec out of 11 classes, but that's another issue entirely), it is not without two precedents:

1) Druids and Monks both use the exact same +agi leather for both physical DPS and tanking. Granted, the secondary stat weights vary by class/spec, but reforging/gemming/enchanting aside, they still use the base leather pieces.
2) Leather/Mail casters no longer having 'dps' vs 'healing' leather/mail. +Hit is no longer found on leather/mail, instead only having +Spirit, with the 'dps' specs getting a free spirit->hit passive

Anyways, it was a thought I've had in the back of my mind for a while, and with the recent comments by Blizz, I figured I'd write up a little blurb and put it out there.

[Edit: Adding stuff from the second page so if anyone looks at this for the first doesn't think I am ignoring active mitigation]

I'm sorry, I guess I only put half of my thoughts down in my OP. And since I don't have access to my authenticator at work, I had to wait until tonight to respond. I was really only referring to the Blue's comment of them taking another hard look at avoidance stats and suggesting how they could get rid of them and simply have plate tanks and dps effectively use the same armor like Druids/Monks and then have some mechanism to gain some residual avoidance.

I left out the same would apply to Druids/Monks as well.

And while this would indeed appear to be 'double dipping', I said that the actual conversion % can be tweaked and tuned as needed.

What I was not discussing was how the 'dps' secondary stats need to be made more attractive to tanks in terms of active mitigation, because that is another issue. But yes, the DPS secondaries need to all play a part in a tank's active mitigation or else they will be ignored just like dodge/parry are now, so since it was brought up, sure, let's examine some ideas:

[Reposting all of the suggestions exceeds the 5000 character limit per post, so I will snip the ideas for the 3 plate classes and leave them on the second page]

So, yeah, for the TLDR folks: Remove 'Tank' gear and just make all +Str class/specs use the same armor just like druids/monks. Then make the currently unattractive 'DPS' secondary stats useful for active mitigation if they currently are not.

The suggestion is nothing new or revolutionary, but it sounds like Blizz is considering the idea with their recent comments regarding avoidance stats on gear.
Edited by Deathgoose on 4/27/2013 7:09 AM PDT
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100 Worgen Druid
10225
Gear with dodge/parry? I may have heard of such a thing once...
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14735
- Haste makes you move faster, right? Moving faster would probably make you harder to hit?
Haste->Dodge

- Crit makes you more likely to wield your weapon in a manner that allows you to hit vital spots? One could argue then that this increased weapon proficiency translates into being able to better deflect incoming attacks with your weapon.
Crit->Parry


That's a pretty kludgy fix. Druids and monks, which you mentioned, have completely separate mechanics that make offensive secondary stats provide them with sufficient defensive benefits.

Giving crit a conversion to parry doesn't really make you want crit. That is, you'll take the stat, since it gives parry, but you're not taking crit because it makes you crit - it's not the critting that matters.

If you're going to the bother of changing offensive stats so that they're valuable to the tanks that don't yet value them, it'd be a shame if you didn't make them care about them for what they are.
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The problem with making dps secondary stats to convert to avoidance is that if it becomes feasiable, then tank damage and dps would have to be adjusted accordingly for it. And you end up in a situation where you find yourself forced to gear for the dps stats to do compariable dps and threat against other tanks. It is a double edged sword as it is rather binary on gearing for it or not.
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
You shouldn't really be posting this without understanding how the "DPS secondaries" work for Monks and Druids.

Honestly the way those work for those tanking specs is infinitely more fun than your idea. A different form of avoidance is exactly... NOT the kind of thing that would be fun.
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90 Human Death Knight
8900
OP's heart is in the right place, even if his/her idea is not original. It will happen--the only question is when. 5.5? 6.0? 6.1? and how. Most likely, in the manner of monks and druids--not with a conversion.

I anticipate them also addressing int plate then--most feasibly putting Holy paladins on mail (with an armor buff) and removing int plate altogether. Putting Unholy--or even Frost--on int plate could happen, but it's not the more elegant fix. Especially considering how well Unholy/Frost share gear now.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
Avoidance is boring. Blizzard is moving away from boring in tanking.

They'll either make avoidance interesting somehow, or more likely remove it in 6.0.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11590
I definitely see tanking gear going the way of the dodo next expansion.
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95 Night Elf Druid
5680
The thing is, you can't really make a spec care meaningfully about seven secondary stats at once (Hit, Exp, Dodge, Parry, Crit, Haste, Mastery -- I'm assuming that Block has already been dropped as a stat, since it's not mentioned in the OP). Some of them are going to wind up so much more important than the others that the low-value stats might as well not exist, it's always going to be better to look for gear without them and reforge out of them.

Hit and Exp cap, but that still leaves five secondary stats competing to be something your spec actually wants on its gear.[1] Frankly, if something's going to be left in the dust I'm glad it's avoidance stats -- they're RNG based, passive, and do very little to help with soloing, dailies, speeding up trash etc. It's much better to be able to ignore them than to have them be boring but practical, because that would make them, effectively, boring and *mandatory*. And who wants mandatory boredom?

An alternative is to give more tanks abilities that are triggered when they avoid an attack, which would not only give you something interesting to do when your gear has more avoidance, but also potentially make avoidance useful even in situations where your survival is trivial and you just want whatever it is to die faster. This still leaves avoidance stats at the mercy of RNG, but hey, so is crit -- the thing that would make them valuable anyway is the effect being big enough to be worth something when you get it and/or having enough swings in a fight that a higher rate will nearly reliably lead to actually getting more procs.

I could definitely see all strength plate (except tier) being one itemization pool in 6.x, though. It seems to be working out fine for leather tanks.

[1] And that's not even counting Stamina, which you can trade off against secondary stats in some things like gems. Fortunately, this is usually not a great idea either.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
16775

An alternative is to give more tanks abilities that are triggered when they avoid an attack, which would not only give you something interesting to do when your gear has more avoidance, but also potentially make avoidance useful even in situations where your survival is trivial and you just want whatever it is to die faster. This still leaves avoidance stats at the mercy of RNG, but hey, so is crit -- the thing that would make them valuable anyway is the effect being big enough to be worth something when you get it and/or having enough swings in a fight that a higher rate will nearly reliably lead to actually getting more procs.


Warrior's, for example, have Revenge. Avoidance for that reason is somewhat interesting for Warriors and I like that interaction. Extra avoidance also allows your Shield Barrier to potentially last longer. On the other hand avoidance makes Shield Block worse since it undermines your ability to make Critical Blocks. These interactions aren't as noticeable ie they're boring. In any case, Avoidance doesn't really help when you're not tanking which happens from time to time. A DPS synergy on the other hand is likely to always be more useful.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
8435
I don't think we'll ever be free of avoidance, but I do see dodge and parry being consolidated. I'd love to see something new and tank-specific, but I'm not sure what that would be or how to implement it. Although that might just be me missing the days of defense and block value, even tho I love me some mastery.

I agree partially with the OP as I do think more could be done with Haste. Movement speed, swing timers, GCD, ICD, resources - do it all.

Also, as Calonderiel said, I don't think everything will be balanced perfectly with the number of specs and stats to choose from. But I would love to see a better balance, particularly between blocking and avoidance. A plate tank stacking avoidance and it being beyond viable, possibly optimal would get me kind of tingly. At least until Orgrimmar Radiance nerfed it, but whatevs.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
So Haste becomes the new "God" stat?

Mmmmmmmmmk.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
8435
I mean, it's *a* thought, yes :-)

Obviously there's a ridiculous ton of balancing that would need to be done, but I wouldn't be against seeing haste be more universally loved. Or at least useful. Would it be better than stacking all avoidance or all mastery in this hypothetical situation? Ideally, no. Would it be on par and a perfectly viable/potentially optimal build choice? In this hand-waving stat re-balancedworld, yes.
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97 Pandaren Monk
19135
Dodge and parry are boring ... but they are necessary. The ratings on the other hand, can be removed from the gear.

The thing is that it simply doesn't work to double dip stats and say "oh haste makes you generate resources faster AND dodge" ..

Like it was said by other players, haste and crit aren't simply converted into defensive stats for monks .. they have defensive utility .. which is a whole other story.

- haste improves your resource generation (like it does for paladins) and allows you to use your tools more often

- crit slightly increases your raid utility by increasing your dmg and allowing you to trigger Statues guards slightly more often ... and triggers a secondary on-use defensive mechanic (elusive brew) ..

That is far from simply putting "oh crit = dodge for monks" ... it's not.

What they are probably going to do in the next expansion:
- get rid of dodge and parry rating from gear (like they did with block). It's already proved to be viable with monks and druids.

- make parry and dodge scale based on agi/str only. Which basically means you get a more "static" avoidance .. for example monks have 40-45% avoidance on lvl 90 and it doesn't change a lot

- create reasons for both haste and crit to be usefull for warriors/dks/paladins (since it's already usefull for monks/druids), in the form of defense utility/cds .. and not simply haste = dodge conversions ..
Edited by Leeflow on 4/26/2013 9:43 AM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
17490
They just need to get rid of tanking plate and make plate tanks use strenght dps gear, just like druids and monks, i really feel like its a better design
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14 Night Elf Druid
0
Honestly, with them making RPPM scale off haste I don't see how haste doesn't start to look attractive for every spec, aside from the ones where it does literally nothing but increase autoattack damage (Fury, Prot).
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90 Tauren Warrior
9435
04/26/2013 06:31 AMPosted by Ivanstone
On the other hand avoidance makes Shield Block worse since it undermines your ability to make Critical Blocks.


Well, speaking as a tank, I'd rather avoid 100% than block 30%, or maybe 60%, and the increased rage isn't worth that cost.
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90 Troll Druid
10305
I don't think we'll ever be free of avoidance, but I do see dodge and parry being consolidated. I'd love to see something new and tank-specific, but I'm not sure what that would be or how to implement it. Although that might just be me missing the days of defense and block value, even tho I love me some mastery.

.


Who in their right mind misses mindlessly stacking defense to a magic number and then largely ignoring it?????? That was completely boring and in no way a compelling design.

Gear based avoidance is very dull. Your actions have minimal impact on your success or failure. The current design is MUCH better.

Our systems now are definitely not perfect but much improved from Vanilla-Wrath tank design.
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90 Troll Druid
10305
Honestly, with them making RPPM scale off haste I don't see how haste doesn't start to look attractive for every spec, aside from the ones where it does literally nothing but increase autoattack damage (Fury, Prot).


I think the underlined part there is the issue. The classes where haste literally does nothing need to be looked at again. I mean, not every secondary stat has to be attractive to everyone but if we are going to make things like RPPM effects scale from haste then it needs to be attractive to everyone.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
19540
Gear based avoidance is very dull. Your actions have minimal impact on your success or failure. The current design is MUCH better.


I tend to agree, if avoidance was completely active mitigation it could be fun. No more dodge/parry on gear, instead you get an active mitigation type ability that causes you to avoid the next attack.
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