Caster Movement DPS disparity

10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
somewhere along the line, the devs forgot the penalty casters have relative to melee.

now ranged are basically melee dps who attack from 40 yards away. it's no wonder melee arent in big demand. :x
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90 Tauren Paladin
16135
Personally would trade hunter mobility and go back to stutter stepping for more through put.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14485
I don't see an issue with the squishier ranged classes/specs (like Elemental) being able to cast while moving.

However, I can see how it would be problematic for more tankier classes/specs (like Warlocks) to be able to do so, though I've fallen in love with KC in PVP.

Perhaps for Warlocks, allow casting while moving, but with a damage reduction, instead of a movement reduction?

There are three ranged classes and three more ranged specs in the game and they all should be treated individually (within reason) when it comes to things like this.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17255
In the current iteration of the game, movement DPS is too punishing to certain specs compared to others.

Some examples of DPS that are not punished are warlocks, hunters, and elemental shamans. All three of these lose close to no DPS when moving. This would be fine if other specs such as shadow or balance didn't lose so much DPS on the move. Mages also face DPS loss when moving but they have a plethora of positioning tools (blink, blazing speed) and can fill the GCDs with instant casts.

Personally, I feel that instead of classes being brought up to warlock/hunter/shaman level of movement DPS, those classes should be brought back in line. The drawback of a caster is that they can't keep DPS up on the move. These classes don't have that drawback.

An alternative is giving the other classes better movement DPS tools. While I feel it is an abomination to DPS on the move so efficiently, certain classes shouldn't have such a clear advantage to others.

Movement DPS for caster will probably be nerfed severely come 6.0 but that is a long time to wait and fixes should be made now to balance out this disparity.


As an Ele Shaman, I'd agree with you if we were doing anywhere near the DPS Spriests or Mages are.

Locks movement talent is simply OP. They're top DPS without it.

The problem is really a mentality thing. I had it on my Frost Mage for awhile. Why Blizzard? Why do I get punished for movement when Locks don't?

Then they buffed Nether Tempest and Frostbolt and the movement issues still exist, but at least I do DPS that compensates for having to deal with it.

On the flip side, Ele is NEVER top DPS (outside of 5 target cleave, and even then Mages, Rogues, Wars, and Locks are all competitive) but we get to use our lowest DPCT spell on the move.

It's not really a movement issue, as much as it is a balance issue -- and Locks seem to be the glaring class that has it all.
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90 Human Warlock
17000
Every class is different; while Shadow gets to multidot, Hunters get to be more mobile. Fights that favour multidotting will favour Shadow, fights that have excessive movement will give Hunters an advantage.

Warlocks, through KJC, are an outlier.
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90 Human Warlock
11835
I guess I'm wondering why people in this thread are defending movement while casting for elemental shaman, but not for warlocks. Because ele shaman aren't as strong?

So then if they do become as strong, will you complain about them, too?

05/02/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Kalorea
It's still relevent because they have hinted it won't last into the next xpac.


And regardless of what they've said (you haven't provided a source for your claims here, so I can't really know), that doesn't make it good design. It just means that's how Blizzard is going to do it. But plenty of people around here will tell you that think half of Blizzard's decisions are crap, and while the game is still fun, it could be better.

Movement while casting for any class would make the game far more engaging. I can imagine why you people would be salty if you don't play a lock, but if you did give it a try on a warlock, you'd know what you've been missing.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17255
05/03/2013 08:49 AMPosted by Suzyq
I guess I'm wondering why people in this thread are defending movement while casting for elemental shaman, but not for warlocks. Because ele shaman aren't as strong?


Exactly. That's the definition of a tradeoff.

So then if they do become as strong, will you complain about them, too?


You know they will -- and rightly so. Let me put it in terms you can better understand --

The OP is a Spriest complaining about having issues with mobility. He cites Ele Shaman as someone who can cast on the move. Yet, he still out DPS's Ele Shaman by a significant margin, even while having issues with movement.

So what would he be like if they fixed his perceived issues with movement?

Serinicas hit the nail on the head:

Every class is different; while Shadow gets to multidot, Hunters get to be more mobile. Fights that favour multidotting will favour Shadow, fights that have excessive movement will give Hunters an advantage.

Warlocks, through KJC, are an outlier.


What the OP is really complaining about are Locks. KJC + Lock DPS. There is no tradeoff for movement for Locks.
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90 Human Warlock
11835
Exactly. That's the definition of a tradeoff.


Giving "OP" abilities to UP classes have never been an effective method of class balancing. If Blizzard sought to make shaman a stronger class by giving them casting while moving, they would be better off giving the class real buffs - I don't really know what they need since I don't play one.

I suppose the other part of my posts, about only being able to cast while standing still being an outdated mechanic, wasn't worth your time.

This community has a thing about one or two classes getting something really cool, and then snatching it away when all the other classes complain, rather than spreading that awesome thing across the classes.
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90 Human Warlock
8430
One thing that none of you seem to understand is that warlocks are a straight dps class. All you hybrid classes complaining about warlock movement have the option of playing a healer or tank. I think blizzard needs to give shadow a spell they can cast while moving that's not a dot. And if blizzard ever removes KJC from warlocks they would need to compensate us with a new spell. We do have fel flame but after removing our luxurious move while casting talent, blizzard should compensate us with something like scorch or just make our filler spells able to cast while moving.
Be careful blizzard. If you remove KJC from warlocks, a lot of us will change classes or will quit the game.
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
I can see warlocks taking a hit later to it after they inevitably redo talents again next xpac.


YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!

Although I really wouldn't be surprised to see it removed/partially baked for certain abilities.

One thing that none of you seem to understand is that warlocks are a straight dps class. All you hybrid classes complaining about warlock movement have the option of playing a healer or tank. I think blizzard needs to give shadow a spell they can cast while moving that's not a dot. And if blizzard ever removes KJC from warlocks they would need to compensate us with a new spell. We do have fel flame but after removing our luxurious move while casting talent, blizzard should compensate us with something like scorch or just make our filler spells able to cast while moving.
Be careful blizzard. If you remove KJC from warlocks, a lot of us will change classes or will quit the game.


You have no idea what you're talking about. KJC was introduced in MoP, and it's not something we really have deserved, or desperately needed. Getting casting while moving is not something that should be tied to a pure DPS. How you make the comparison is mind-boggling to me. And warlocks have traditionally (scratch Cata) been extremely good for raiding before it existed. Losing it wouldn't be the end of the world.

The half-problem right now is that we're somewhat balanced around having it, although if they removed it, and didn't compensate us we would still be in a pretty good spot for raiding depending on spec. Destro would be hit the hardest.
Edited by Varlth on 5/3/2013 10:34 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Warlock
14465
Now it slows by 30%, a modest amount but negligible in many situations.


HJi-kun :( Only fight I can't use it on. Could probably try to start using it again now that it's partially on farm, but on progression I was absolutely terrible with it. Would move a bit before having to go to a lower nest...LOLMISSED IT.
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90 Troll Priest
12745
Gut all movement while casting, save for things like ice floes & spiritwalker's grace.

Seriously. All of it. No lightning bolt while moving because it's an "ele niche". No KJC. No hunter infinite mobility. No scorch (even though it's trash compared to the options the previous classes mentioned).

Blizzard has been ruining the finesse of being a caster DPS this whole expansion, and it's really annoying. It used to be really fun on a fight even as recent as H Rag to see who your better casters were--it usually involved who moved the least for lava waves, etc. Mages got a bit of an extreme example of this recently (rune of power) which is an awful design but still probably better than infinite movement while casting.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17255
05/03/2013 09:15 AMPosted by Duskull
What the OP is really complaining about are Locks. KJC + Lock DPS. There is no tradeoff for movement for Locks.

The tradeoff is a 30% snare to movement, which in light movement situations isn't noticeable at all but in a few fights is actually quite a hassle. You need a stopcasting macro on Ji-Kun if you're on the center platform or else even 1 stack of it(15% movement reduction) and you'll get blown off the platform.

Granted it might not be well implemented but I think the tradeoff is almost fair.

Edit: on top of the base 30% snare, we can take advantage of the effects of burning rush to be moving at a normal pace, but at the cost of 4% of our hp per second. So effectively we're given two options, either of which can be burdened to the healers.


That's not a tradeoff.

Here's an example of a real tradeoff. Replace one of your 90 talents (Mannoroth's Fury muwhahwahahha!) with a 20% DPS buff.

Now -- which talent do you choose?

I get that there is a penalty for KJC. But is it really an effective penalty? Mages have to take time out of their rotation to put up a 15% SP buff. That's a tradeoff. They also have difficulty moving and breaking their rotation (especially Arcane) are significant DPS losses. Very high standing DPS is a tradeoff.

Ele Shaman are the opposite of Arcane Mages. Very high mobility. Mediocre DPS. Hunters are in a similar boat as Ele Shaman.

NOTE: I'm not asking for a nerf to KJC. And I do agree (particularly for Destro) that it is needed, or else a large overhaul is needed to compensate for the loss of it.

The OP is complaining about SPreist lack of mobility. I'm pointing out that -- they don't need it. They still do very high DPS (not to mention have high utility) even with the "handicap."

He is however, really comparing himself to Locks. Which are high DPS, high mobility. But I would also argue lower utility than Spriests.
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90 Human Rogue
14200
How about they remove this idiotic idea of casting and moving, and go back to being BC ranged :_)
Edited by Starbûck on 5/3/2013 10:44 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Mage
17090
That's not necessarily true. It's an old design philosophy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's still relevant.


How else do you think melee can have any advantages at all over ranged? Besides ridiculous "melee damage increased by 25%" mechanics like will of the emperor, of course. How about the actual skill in playing a ranged dps?
Edited by Kolzi on 5/3/2013 12:15 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Mage
17090
Gut all movement while casting, save for things like ice floes & spiritwalker's grace.

Seriously. All of it. No lightning bolt while moving because it's an "ele niche". No KJC. No hunter infinite mobility. No scorch (even though it's trash compared to the options the previous classes mentioned).

Blizzard has been ruining the finesse of being a caster DPS this whole expansion, and it's really annoying. It used to be really fun on a fight even as recent as H Rag to see who your better casters were--it usually involved who moved the least for lava waves, etc. Mages got a bit of an extreme example of this recently (rune of power) which is an awful design but still probably better than infinite movement while casting.


Totally agree with this, the amount of skill that has been consistently being cut from playing a ranged in raiding is ridiculous. Scorch and lightning bolt last expansion was dumb, everything else this expansion is even worse.
Edited by Kolzi on 5/3/2013 12:13 PM PDT
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